BM Degree, Double Degree or Double Major?

College Majors Music Major
21

@TiggerDad - schools and programs change. Don’t write off any school which is attractive for other reasons before at least checking out their current musical offerings. Reputations may be stagnant, but the reality is everything is always changing.

Btw. my son did get a Double Degree and absolutely loved it. But he is a composer and wasn’t studying performance, so he had a lot fewer scheduling issues, even if he still had a very full plate. (He was at Bard which requires every student to get two degrees.)

22

Making a kid major in music performance and “pre med” is basically telling him he isn’t good enough for either, you need a back up plan for both just in case. That can hurt both…

For strictly pre med a kid can be better off at a state flagship than a prestigious school. No one ever asks a doctor where they went for undergrad. Save the money for med school and shoot for the dream career, not undergrad school.

For a music career, pick a school based on outcomes. And that is contingent on teachers. Many of the state schools have the best teachers. Plus a few very specific schools of music within private universities. And conservatories. Don’t believe it’s easier to get into a top studio than a prestige academic school academically. That kid getting into Rice actually had to do both. And might have been admitted versus 50-100 applicants for one spot on their instrument. To then play in an orchestra as a freshman alongside Juilliard grads, NEC grads, Northwestern grads, etc who are at Rice to earn an MM and win a job… And money wise the rewards go to the best of the best.

Forget Harvard

23

A HS classmate of my daughter went to a large university, majored in music, and then basically earned a second degree at a CA state school as a science major of some sort. I think it took him about 3 years for the second degree. He is now going to medical school, a little later than some but not that far off.

24

If it turns out that your son is attracted by a BA based school with a vibrant music department, he will be able maintain a high level of flexibility as his objectives coalesce. (I believe this is true of many small LACs, but I refer to Williams as that is the one I’m most familiar with.)

Students don’t have to “declare” their major(s) until midway through their sophomore years, so there’s time to probe more deeply into the departments’ strengths and major requirements. Even after becoming specialized their major areas students are still able to experiment in other disciplines. In fact, Williams discourages students from taking more than two courses per term in their major area.

Double majoring, as I mentioned in your other thread, is common and not particularly onerous. At Williams 42% have double majors. (Note, this is different from a double degree.) Graduate school advising, whether it’s medicine or music, are also quite supportive and accessible early on in the process.

25

There is an orchestra in Boston that consists primarily of MD’s :slight_smile: http://www.longwoodsymphony.org/about.html

Not sure why someone said “Forget Harvard.” I’ll PM you on that. It would be an excellent choice. Harvard has increased its focus on applied arts and now gives credit for lessons and performance in some ensembles. Check out Brattle Street Players- you won’t find a higher level of playing anywhere. Grads go on to grad school in music, including direct to PhD in some cases, and some on to professional careers.

And don’t write Amherst off either.

I would also look into Brown because, like Amherst, it doesn’t have gen ed requirements so there is a little more room for course selection in terms of a double major. Brown actually does have a premed program. But a premed program is not necessary. There are also specific programs for liberal arts majors to do premed prerequisites between college and med school. (Goucher? Tufts?)

To avoid that double life feeling, I would think a double degree at a liberal arts college that has a conservatory on campus might be ideal. For instance, Oberlin conservatory students live with college students, take courses with college students, and may perform in college productions as well as those in the conservatory. Lawrence and Bard come up as well. One thing to look at, superficially anyway, is distance from college to conservatory in any double degree program :slight_smile:

If your son does a BS program with music on the side, however, as we have said, often schools with a conservatory or music school are something to avoid, because the best teachers and opportunities go to the music students. Check into this aspect at Yale too: teachers for undergrads are often grad students. So the presence of the School of Music can be a pro or a con depending.

26

I agree with Compmom --Harvard, Yale, Princeton all seem like good choices. Great academics, great undergrad music programs.

27

How many music majors (non performance) at say Harvard end up as professional Orchestral musicians?

I know there is a single strings soloist from many many years back.

How many undergrad music concentrators are there not in the NEC dual degree program (5-7 a year)??

What can you do with a music degree from Harvard?

The A.B. degree from Harvard with a Concentration in Music is a liberal arts degree, and our students pursue careers in professions similar to anyone with liberal arts training. They become lawyers, congressional aides, software developers, sound technicians, arts administrators, and speech pathologists, as well conductors, performers, composers, and professors.

Seriously compare Harvard to Rice, Northwestern, Michigan, Indiana, etc.

28

@ClarinetDad16 The conductor/composer in residence with the LA Opera for the next few years, Matt Aucoin, is a recent Harvard grad. A recent violinist grad, who didn’t major in music, as far as I know, went straight into a top MM/PhD program last year. And these are just two Harvard recent grads I have personal knowledge of. Let alone the composers…

29

@SpiritManager - conductors, composers, professors, lawyers, doctors, etc…

A top performer looking to play will have a much tougher path towards a professional orchestra because of Harvard.

Just like Stanford is a much better bet for a job at Google than Harvard…

To me it’s about outcomes. Shouldn’t that be why a passionate dreamer pursues a particular career?

30

Anecdotally, my daughter, who is in an MM program now (she went to a conservatory) has friends who went to Ivy undergrads and are now doing MM at Juilliard, Rice, and other comparable conservatories. They are top students in the program. Her current teacher, by the way, has an undergrad degree from Harvard. Of course, these students study with NEC teachers during undergrad, even if they are not in the joint program. @ClarinetDad16, I don’t agree with you specifically about Harvard, or Yale, or even Princeton, although what you write is going to be generally true for most elite academic institutions.

I don’t know if they want to be orchestral musicians as opposed to making living doing chamber music and freelancing–that is a lifestyle choice. Orchestra jobs provide security but many musicians prefer the artistic freedom of a freelance career.

31

@ClarinetDad16 - Thinking from the perspective of “outcomes” is not a bad approach. Sure, if my son’s interested in the “outcome” of being employed at Google, then Stanford or Carnegie Mellon would probably be a better bet than Harvard. If my son’s interested in being the Joshua Bell type of solo violin artist as an “outcome,” Harvard isn’t probably the most ideal place to be, although someone like Yo Yo Ma has done just fine. If my son’s into composing, on the other hand, I wouldn’t mind at all having him apply to Harvard.

I suppose the key is a good matchmaking between the individual aspiration and the most appropriate place for the person to thrive in. I know that certain type of plants or trees just don’t grow well in the desert terrain of Arizona whereas those do remarkably well in, say, Washington. Essentially, that’s what I’m trying to help my son with.

So far, after having read everyone’s input very carefully, and knowing my son’s personality, musical/academic level, his likes and dislikes, etc., we have come up with the working plan of applying to:

BA or BS at: Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Brown, Stanford, UChicago, Williams, Amherst, etc. with music involvement on the side

BM at Large University setting: Northwestern/Bienen, Johns Hopkins/Peabody, Rice/Shepherd, IU/Jacobs, Vanderbilt/Blair, with pre-med course prerequisites in case of moving on to a med school

BM at Conservatory: NEC, perhaps for Harvard/NEC dual degree program

Again, this is just a working plan. Things can change and will keep my mind open to suggestions.

32

@TiggerDad For your son, the Tufts/NEC program makes more sense than the Harvard/NEC. Harvard would tie him into getting an MM in music, even if he wants to be a doctor and would curtail his years at Harvard. Tufts he would get two undergrad degrees and could pursue all his interests equally.

33

Just a thought. “Fit” for music is often a combination of the program and specific teachers. While it’s very rare to expect to meet academic professors before applying, that’s exactly what most prospective music applicants do. Before you design your school list for BM programs, it may be worth your time to visit a few schools in person and meet some prospective teachers. Joshua Bell didn’t go to Jacobs for the program or its outcome; he went there because that’s where Gringold was.

34

@TiggerDad you are receiving a lot of excellent advice once again.

Pick a school that will enable his dream, not one that will close the door most of the way.

If he is passionate about music - be there for him. If down the road he changes his mind, then he can pursue another occupation.

35

The key factor is that there are many roads in music or in life. There have been more than a few people who got BM degrees who later on went to med school, pre med is not a major, it is a concentration around some other major, and what BM students do is what a lot of people do after UG, they take the required science courses after UG (schools have special programs for this now), so the student could get a BM, then spend some time catching up on the other courses.

A lot of talented students do the route the OP mentioned, they go to a high level academic college while doing music on the side, so to speak. The ivies have very strong orchestras and ensembles, even if they don’t offer BM degrees, and a lot of talented music students go that route. My son has friends at all the Ivies, kids who were at Juilliard pre college with them, and he has known quite a few who ended up doing MM degrees at top programs. BTW, Yo Yo Ma and Gil Shaham ( went to Columbia) and Alicia Weilerstein are not great examples, they were already performing on a professional level when they went to the schools they did, but other kids do music while pursuing a BA/BS (and not in music, I might add), and can end up in music.

It all depends on what the kid himself wants, U Mich and Vanderbilt are full of talented musicians who went there because they are high level music schools and they can do a BM/BA or BS (my son called them the Ivy leagues of the dual degree crowd at Juilliard pre college, kids who were academically out there and musically).

36

@ScreenName48105 - You’re, of course, right that we should get to know potential teachers and the programs by personal visits. Fortunately, my son has already met some of them: He met Paul Kantor, who teaches violin at Rice, at Aspen a couple of years ago; was taught by Mark Kaplan and Grigory Kalinovsky (both IU violin faculty) at Heifetz Int. Music Institute about three years ago; Shmuel Ashkenasi at Northwestern is a good old poker playing buddy of my son’s violin teacher from Curtis Institute; etc. So, my son does have a few potential violin teachers in mind. He also attended the IU Summer String Academy when he was 11 or 12, so he’s quite familiar with the school, and he did visit Northwestern campus and the Bienen building about 2 years ago. We did a tour of NEC a few years back.

By the way, Joshua Bell, didn’t “go to” IU. He happened to be there simply because his father was a Psychology faculty at IU. It so happened that Gingold, a close friend of my son’s violin teacher, came to IU and the rest is history. Interesting story: when my son’s teacher graduated from Curtis at age 20, Gingold recruited him to be his assistant at IU. He initially accepted the offer but changed his mind at the last minute and went to do a graduate work at USC, instead, when both Heifetz and Piatigorsky were there. He said calling Gingold to break the news was one of the hardest things he ever did.

37

Great, sounds like you’re ahead of the game.

I have a few friends who were music students at IU when JB was there, including one who also studied with Gingold. They introduced me to JB at a recital in Paris in the early 90’s and I guess I’ve always assumed he attended IU because they all talked and acted as if he did, including his accompanist at that time, also an IU grad/friend. I stand corrected 25 years later!

38

Just want to reiterate that an orchestra chair is no longer everyone’s goal :slight_smile:

Some Harvard students do the double degree, and some study privately with a teacher. It can work either way. Outcomes seem pretty good from what I know.

Princeton offers a certificate in performance by the way http://www.princeton.edu/music/certificate-of-music/