BME vs MechE - tentatively pre med

Colleges and Universities A-Z Washington University in St. Louis
1

Posted in the Engineering Majors forum as well, but I’d like the opinions of washU people. I’ll be a freshman engineering student next year, tentatively pre med. After undergrad, I’ll join the peace corps for two years, work for a little while, and then head to grad school, either med school or for an engineering masters or PhD. I’m trying to decide between an undergrad major in BME and Mech E. Advice would be appreciated.

BME:
Pros:
-only highly ranked engineering program at WashU
-covers lots of bases
-great if med school is in the future
-research is fascinating
-lots of GREAT resources in WashU’s med school

Cons:
-not in-depth enough for an interesting job before grad school
-not as much math as mech E
-too specialized for wide job prospects
-I don’t really know how much I like pure bio

Mech E:
Pros:
-broader job prospects, room for career changes (if med school is not in my future)
-can do a lot of the more interesting things BMEs can do, like prosthetics
-lots of room for creativity
-will be taking bio classes anyways for premed, so I’ll still have the education for a BME job/grad program.
-I like to build things

Cons:
-WashU’s program isn’t as great
-not as medical, maybe not great if I do end up at med school
-not as many resources as BME at WashU

I’m not going to major in both because I’d like to take a second humanities major as well. If I do Mech E, I’ll probably minor in Aerospace or Robotics. If I do BME, I’ll probably minor in Robotics or Mech E. I’d like to make a decision before I register for classes (June 13-15) so that I’ll be able to fit in two majors and maybe a minor. I’m really worried about some things I’ve heard about the quality of WashU engineering, so I wonder if I’d be better off for jobs and resources in BME.

Thanks in advance!

2

The major isn’t declared until sophomore year. You have time to figure things out.

My son’s lab partner for Biology and Chemistry is a BME major considering premed. IIRC my son’s friend had a pretty intense classload freshman year. First semester was General Chemistry 1, Chemistry Lab (separate class at WashU), Physics 1, Calculus 3, Introduction to Computer Science, and another Engineering class. Second semester was General Chemistry 2, Chemistry Lab, Biology, Physics 2, and 2 more classes.

I think there are some current students who post here who are BME/pre-med.

3

Thank you for the response! Do I have time to explore a bit even with a double major? I’m worried I won’t have time to fit in all the credits (and I’d like to study abroad at some point)

4

My son’s friend is kind of an extreme case. You should be able to explore your interests.

Double majors/multiple minors are encouraged. My son is thinking about Biology/History with a Computer Science minor. If med school doesn’t work for him, he may consider law school. Remember that nobody is completely set during freshman year as to future plans.

There is a class crosslisted in the Biology department that freshmen can take which talks about pre-med and the ins and outs of the medical school application process. It’s taught by a WashU med school professor who is also the chief of emergency medicine at Barnes-Jewish Hospital.

I can ask my son about how the pre-med BMEs are faring when he comes back for summer break next week. He told me that his friend was going to take a year’s worth of Organic Chemistry in 8 weeks at WashU over the summer.

5

And if you are planning on pre-med and studying abroad, Global Medical Scholars might be of interest. It’s a specific program for pre-meds with a semester abroad in Shanghai-my son isn’t interested since the visits to family turned him off on China.

6

Actually, engineers declare majors before the start of freshman year in order to get faculty advisors (this is different than ArtSci).

I’m a freshman BME (but not premed) at WashU, so hopefully I can help answer some of your questions. The BME curriculum and the premed curriculum have a large amount of overlap, which is one reason a lot of people choose BME, at least initially. Organic chemistry is one of the few major premed classes that BMEs don’t have to take. On the flip side, premeds cannot get credit for any AP science credit while normal BMEs can. However, many people, some premed and some not, transfer out of BME either after first or second semester. It’s an acquired taste for sure; it’s a lot of work and you really have to have a passion for if you’re gonna stick it. If you’re looking for a high GPA to go into med school, you may prefer MechE.

I took advantage of my AP science credits, so I had plenty of time to explore. I’m actually probably going to end up with three minors: music, CSE, and EE.

Also, I’d like to point out that a MechE can study in a BME lab; these things are pretty flexible here.

I have a friend to came in BME and just switched to MechE for all the reasons you described above: more flexible jobs after graduation, less pure bio, etc. Imo it sounds to me like you should get a MechE undergrad, and if you choose engineering grad school, get a BME masters. Certainly MechE won’t put you at a disadvantage for med school, either; it just means you have to take more science classes outside of your major.

7

@JemmaSimmons thank you! You can take three minors?? Wow! I thought it was limited to two. Do you think the MechE program is significantly ‘worse’ than the BME program? I’m not one to obsess over rankings but what I’ve seen does concern me a bit.

8

I think it’s the rule of 3-double major and one minor or a major and 2 minors. At least in Arts and Sciences.

Some medical schools will accept AP science credits. For Arts and Sciences, the only science classes that will earn major requirement credits are Physics C Mechanics and Physics C EM.

You will get general education requirements for Biology, Chemistry, and Physics 1/2 with a 5, but not for the major.

IIRC Engineering majors are exempt from the writing requirement, but some medical schools are now looking for at least 2 semesters of humanities courses with at least 1 being writing intensive. Depending on the medical school, a psychology and/or a sociology class will be required for all pre-meds.

9

@bken2018 : Is it an undergraduate ranking for the department? Actually honestly, even (more like especially. If it was a grad. ranking, they are basically ranking research impact and not educational quality) if it isn’t, the problem with a lot of departmental rankings is that they do not actually measure the quality and rigor of the education (and you have some like NRC doctoral rankings that actually take into account how similar the programs are to other top ranked programs which IMHO, I think would prevent any innovations from positively impacting NRC score in that category). I think often “reputation” and size (number of faculty and students in it) carry too much weight. Those rankings usually don’t find ways to address the nature and style of education of undergrads in the department. I suspect WUSTL does really well there because it is one of the top private research universities very serious about undergraduate STEM education in general and puts a lot of effort and resources into updating curricula, and encouraging faculty to adopt the best methods. This effort is much more important for the students’ experiences in the major than any ranking. And trust me, not all top tier research universities are the same in the amount of effort they put into STEM education for undergraduates. WUSTL appears to try really hard (it seems like a lot of the D-3 schools do to be honest).

As long as the courses are conceptually rigorous, have projects, involve lots of analytical and creative thinking when necessary, then they are likely very good.

10

I’ve never heard of the “rule of three” or whatever, haha! Nah, you can major and minor in whatever you can fit in. I know lots of artsci kids with two majors and one or two minors. A lot of BMEs will get one or two engineering minors; it’s a bit more unusual to see people like me with art sci minors, just because there’s less overlap. Engineers don’t have the Writing 1 requirement, but we do still have a technical writing class required for senior year. Also, we have humanities and social sciences distribution requirements, and many of those classes at WashU are writing intensive.

I don’t know much about the MechE program here but my impression is that it’s not bad. It’s certainly not as well known as the BME program, but as a MechE at WashU you will receive a quality education and lots of personal attention, which is something that separates WashU from the average state school.

In terms of AP classes for med school, it’s not that a med school WON’T take the credits; rather, they would prefer to see you take those important stepping stone classes at a standardized college level, especially at a school like WashU.

It is important to note that WashU has a fifteen-credit limit on the number of APs they will accept. For example, I took my AP chemistry credit to count toward my major, which is 10 credits here at WashU (for two semesters with lab). On the flip side, I did not take credit for AP psychology, but instead took placement. This means that I did not get credit for Psych 100 to count toward my major requirements, but I did get placement so I could take Psych 200 here first semester.

11

For Arts and Sciences the rules are specific-2 majors and a minor and 1 major and 2 minors. My son’s friend from high school (rising junior at WashU) mentioned this specifically and ‘rule of 3’ was his words. You’re not allowed to have 2 majors and 2 minors.

http://bulletin.wustl.edu/undergrad/artsci/requirements/

12

Interesting. That’s the first I’ve heard of that rule. Regardless, the OP is not in Art Sci, and neither am I. I think you’ll find that the engineering school is much more flexible. For example, the CS department offers both a bioinformatics minor and a computer science minor, and the overlap between the two is substantial. I asked my professor if I could minor in both and he asked me why the hell I wouldn’t minor in both. Contrastingly, I asked the ArtSci people about a possible Math minor, and even though I have taken equivalent classes in the engineering school, I would have to retake classes in ArtSci in order to fulfill the minor requirements… something about double counting. Needless to say, I’m not minoring in Math.

13

@JemmaSimmons : Keep in mind that the AP thing is complicated at many state schools and say…top 10 universities:

" they would prefer to see you take those important stepping stone classes at a standardized college level"

This thing about: “Standardized College Level” makes no sense though I know what you mean and maybe where it comes from. Many of the most elite schools (and good publics) offer very accelerated tracks (they heavily tier intro. courses) for those with AP credit and beyond in things like chemistry and physics, and even biology.

So many at those schools will not take “standardized college” courses, especially if they have AP credits. They will simply use the AP to take an accelerated or honors version of a course. In addition, most medical schools do not care if you use placement as long as the student takes an advanced course WITH LAB in the discipline being skipped. I have never seen problems, for example, with students who have taken organic chemistry as frosh (a track offered at most elites) and have gone on to say take analytical or inorganic chemistry with lab. Usually pre-healths shy away from this option because they may not major in those areas and don’t want to risk their GPAs, however I have seen many say, non-chemistry majors (in the case I’ve described) go the route I just mentioned, did fine (makes sense, they are already ahead of the crowd in their chemistry training) and get interviews everywhere. Biology is the same. And since so many pre-healths major in it and most biology majors require upper division courses, no harm is done. However biology departments at elites are sticklers with AP credits, usually requiring students to take 1 or both courses in a sequence before advancing. However, point is medical schools are not going to punish more ambitious students for not having specific pre-med cores with very specific designations on their transcript and I think the AP thing has turned into that sort of myth where it has prevented or scared more academically ambitious pre-healths who probably could have done well and benefited from more advanced options earlier in their careers (this especially goes for those considering MDPhD. Usually you get more mentoring and a closer faculty connection when on these more select tracks with smaller class sizes. If instructor is tenure track, you may have a high chance of being recruited to their lab if you are interested and do ok in the course)

Take Princeton ISP:
https://lsi.princeton.edu/integratedscience

Not designed for pre-healths but I doubt any medical school discriminates based upon the structure of the coursework in it and it seems to produce tons of PhDs.

Harvard’s overall “life sciences” curriculum no longer contains general chemistry AT ALL (they retired Physical Sciences 11) in no way shape or form. They do integrate some of the concepts as well as bio-organic concepts into their 1st life sciences course (equivalent to bio 1 elsewhere I guess).

In addition they have super advanced biology options like this, that once again, are not designed for pre-healths:
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2015/9/4/College-introduces-LS50-course/

But I bet some still go to it and I doubt there is any harm done. They aren’t gonna go: “Gee how dare you learn advanced biochemistry and biophysics concepts as a freshman instead of basic bio 1 and 2” at least not any med. school that makes sense. If med. schools were so strict, much of Harvard’s curricula would be dismissed outright, however the movement towards evaluating competencies as well as a trust of elite educational institutions clearly allows a lot of room for experimentation.

Many LACs (including the most elite) only offer a semester of general chemistry and then the 2nd semester begins organic. Michigan does this as well.

So there are many schools that straight up have STEM curricula structures that do not directly align with what most med. schools claim they want to see, yet most of these schools have very high success rates. Either way, I am just pointing out that especially for those rare students that are willing to take “risks” early in their pre-health career (probably not as rare at some elites nor large publics that are fairly or highly selective). At many of the very top ranked schools, accelerated courses and options have high enrollment, likely by pre-healths in things like chemistry), there is more flexibility than one may think.

14

I’m not saying WashU’s rule is good, or even that it makes sense, but pre-med advisors will not allow pre-med students to skip intro bio and intro chem. It’s simply not done at WashU. Perhaps that is because no other bio course with lab is required imminently for the pre-med curriculum. All I know is that 0 of my pre-med friends took their AP credit.

15

@JemmaSimmons while we’re on the subject of multiple majors/minors, how many units are too much? the sample curriculum for BME lists 15 units for the required classes for the first semester, but I’d really like to take arabic, which is 5 more units… are 20 units too much? I don’t want to get in over my head but I also don’t want to be stuck in the engineering department

16

For first semester, 20 units is a lot. Honestly, 20 units is a lot for any semester. First semester year is an adjustment period, and the last thing you want is to be drowning in work. The BME first semester curriculum is no joke; they’re trying to weed out the people who don’t want it hard enough. Personally, I would hold off on Arabic until at least second semester; you’ll have a better feel for how you manage the workload at WashU. Also, if you wait till sophomore year, there are free spaces for humanities and social sciences built in, so you can take unique classes then.

Unfortunately, without AP credit, it’s hard to responsibly take fun classes freshmen year as a BME.

17

@JemmaSimmons : So some departments at WUSTL allow for certain things but pre-med advisors don’t? Is that what you are saying? Pre-med advisors have control over course schedules? That is kind of messed up. I have never heard of stuff like that. I have heard of pre-med advisors trying to have an influence and discourage this and that at other places, but I have also heard of more ambitious students saying “forget you!” and accelerating if the department allowed and again this is surprisingly common at other elites. Also, one must be careful with “none of the pre-meds I know did that” because I notice that a lot of pre-healths segregate into these groups where some all choose and advise each other to go down a super beaten path and to only listen to pre-health advisors no matter their qualifications and backgrounds, then there are groups of friends with more diverse paths, and then some full of more hardcore students who indeed say: “I want to take this accelerated option, so I will use my AP credit to place into it”

Again, sometimes there are departmental barriers or a school does not offer real acceleration options specifically for first years or those with AP (like I think WUSTL does not have frosh ochem sections). The biology barriers are common, but usually other depts have more acceleration tracks and courses that ultimately fulfill pre-med requirements. WUSTL needs it less in chemistry because the 1st semester of gchem has lots of material not covered in AP (however, the 2nd semester is basically AP), but again, even at schools with high pitched gchem courses, many still have the ochem option for AP freshmen or other “general chemistry” options.

Point is often there are acceleration/AP use options that are allowed by medical schools. A school having an advising apparatus that steers all pre-healths away from that is a different issue altogether (may reflect a “play it safe” culture…don’t know if it is good or bad. To each their own) and has nothing to do with what the medical schools allow because obviously such steering is less common elsewhere (and again, sometimes it appears pre-health is full of peer pressure. If friends say “oh no, I hear you shouldn’t do that”…I find that even if those friends are freshmen, some disregard their own ambition and preparedness and fall in line with the crowd.
They don’t even need an authority like a pre-health advisor to do it…they run based upon fear already so are prepared to be risk averse).

18

@bernie12 All of your points are valid, and I don’t disagree with them. I think it is also important to keep in mind that at a school like WashU, all students are the go-getter types. Gen Chem is strongly recommended (if not required) for a reason. I’m sure if you ask an advisor and have an explanation as to why you believe that you should be able to take your AP credit, then they might just let you skip those general requirements. Anything like that will be on a person-by-person basis, however; they tell all the engineers at orientation what the AP rules are generally, and they’re relatively strict. There’s always an appeals process for the overly ambitious.

19

@JemmaSimmons : I am just wondering if they do it for physics and math where there is much heavier tiering.

This is actually one thing I notice that separates schools like WUSTL, Emory, VU, and some other non-top 10s from most of the top 10 schools. Most of the top 10s have much more acceleration options (even if their baseline intro. course that is appropriate for pre-healths and majors is already pitched at a high level) and indeed many more students at them are using the acceleration options, pre-health or not. They have much less “play it safe” cultures. Now what I imagine is: It is trickier for engineers, because usually elites and most schools with engineering tier the general physics sequence. You have a calc. based targeting randoms and pre-healths, a calc. based targeting future engineers, and an honors sequence typically targeting future physics majors with strong backgrounds (usually those with AP…and in extreme cases, as is common at a place like H, maybe even a International Olympiad medal or participation). I can see them telling engineers to forgo taking honors if the engineering sequence specifically focuses on mathematical methods common in engineering that honors a) doesn’t cover or b) expects students to know already despite it not being covered in AP/IB/A-level.

Math: Since most engineering tracks require at least intermediate levels of mathematics, I don’t see WUSTL being an exception and recommending against using AP/IB to access the intermediate level math courses, some which don’t even use calculus like that (linear algebra), but maybe not honors math for frosh because that is proofs based so may be less useful for engineers. I think engineers may be a very special crowd because they typically have STEM courses in math and physics, and sometimes chemistry specifically designed for them. And again, if WUSTL did not make gchem 1 baby quantum…it would not make sense for them to discourage AP skipping it (though again, I think that could be worked out. If WUSTL had a frosh ochem, students could take that. Technically courses like analytical chemistry do not rely upon really any level of quantum chemistry so that is accessible to someone skipping AP. If a biochemistry course had a lab, most med. schools would take that and count it as an “inorganic with lab”). I just think some advising structures have affects on the cultures on some campuses.

Like if you read general pre-health advising books at the very top ranked schools, I remember them almost discouraging people from forfeiting AP if they genuinely felt capable of accelerating and places like Princeton will straight up put the AP credits you qualified for on the final transcript perhaps to discourage talented students (even within the Princeton context) from “retracing their steps” which they claimed they (med. schools) don’t like. My guess is that it is actually Princeton who doesn’t like it, but we’ll never know, because many schools actually hide the forfeited APs as far as know. Princeton and some of those schools are putting their thumbs on the scale to perhaps develop the most talented students further than they would be if they were just told to “play it safe because you are pre-health”

Regardless of if the other schools have good placement rates, I feel as if they should all consider the way their advising influences the intellectual culture and choices among STEM majors, especially the pre-health crowd. It could be healthier and more diverse if you had more students taking risk (schools like many of those top 10s also have many students doing acceleration change their minds and want to pursue a PhD or MDPhD, so also benefit from getting more former undergrads represented in academia when the smoke clears). Just something to think about is all. I just thought WUSTL would have been more like those places.

20

@bernie12 Math and physics do have accelerated tracks. I heavily considered taking the proof-based calculus class this year, but I decided against it in pursuit of more space in my schedule for humanities classes, which lead to one of my minors. I have a friend who went straight to graduate-level Math his first semester here because, quite frankly, he could. He skipped several semesters of math, no problem (although he’s not premed; still, I doubt it would have mattered). Most people here start in calc 3 because they take their AP credit from BC. Math is completely different than life science, and premeds absolutely take advantage of AP credit. The proof-based Calc 3 sequence here is two semesters instead of one, though, so in the interest of time, NOT safety, many students take the “normal” sequence. For many students, that extra semester is the key to fitting in that second major or minor, to pursuing a non-STEM topic they might find interesting. There’s more than one way to take a risk.

Everything at WashU is highly personalized. I have four advisors that are all willing to move the world for me if I have an idea of a unique track. There aren’t really set “tracks”. If you’re a student that believes they qualify to skip the classes, that can be done. I quite honestly take offense to the fact that you believe WashU students are the “play it safe” type. It is obvious to me that you have not spent time on this campus. I have multiple freshmen friends in graduate level classes because they reached out and made it happen. I have multiple friends that have started their own companies while maintaining full time student and premed status. Many students grind away each semester at 18-20 credits. BS/MS in 4.5 years is not uncommon. What IS uncommon is to see a student with only one major, to see a student not passionately pursuing things on campus to further their community and career. I made a generalization that the university policy is to encourage students to take the basic science courses in order to foster a solid foundation, and you believe that means that WashU is a “play it safe” school?