<p>The Harvard authors need to learn about life in the entire US, not just their corner of it or their students. The AP system may not be perfect but has its uses. Course quality may vary but offering a measurable standard gives schools an idea of what constitutes an above average HS course, even if they fall short in their attempt to teach it. For a student from a podunk HS it means something when they do well on an AP exam. What workable solution do the authors propose instead of the AP system? There were no AP courses available in my day, no way of judging if what I had learned compared to that learned by those in other HS’s. How could Harvard have known that what my Midwest public HS taught me and I retained was just as much as someone from their feeder schools (aside from the fact I am female and couldn’t get into Harvard back then…)?</p>
<p>Just because the authors are from Harvard doesn’t make them gods. I haven’t read the book. Would find a multi-institutional review/authorship more believable.</p>
<p>Aren’t most teachers at schools that offer AP are teaching this type of mix already? Are there really schools where a teacher is teaching 5 or 6 AP classes, with not one Honors or College Prep or (the horror! ) “regular” course in the mix? </p>
<p>I like the idea. I like the intent of the idea. But there are problems with the idea, which are perhaps addressed in the summary or the book.</p>
<p>First, some teachers don’t want to teach AP. They don’t want the challenge. That might mean that they are horrid lazy teachers period, or it might be that they enjoy working with other types of students more. </p>
<p>Grading will go through a period of adjustment. A teacher who is downshifting from a high-performing AP class will have high expectations; the teacher used to regular classes won’t be expecting much of their students at all. </p>
<p>AP coursework is sometimes offered just in junior and senior year. The objective in exposing students to the best teachers is to give them equal opportunity at getting the best education possible at the school. I’d rather see the emphasis put on having excellent teachers early on. Elementary school and middle school would be the highest priority, but in a high school, front-load good teaching to 9th and 10th grade, where there’s more leverage.</p>
<p>D1 attends a selective-admit public magnet housed at a large residential public high school. The contrast between the two populations is dramatic, and gives a poster child view of the strengths and weaknesses of the AP program. Most of the magnet AP courses are structured like college courses. Though they generally don’t teach to the test, most students receive 4s and 5s on the AP tests (students in our district are required to take AP tests to receive AP credit on their transcripts). The magnet has offered an AP-heavy curriculum for decades, long before the current fad to load up on APs as a way of impressing adcoms. The AP courses were offered because the student body was/is academically exceptional, and needed an exceptionally challenging curriculum. </p>
<p>The regular school AP courses don’t offer that rigor. Magnet students who enroll in the regular school’s AP courses because of scheduling issues complain that the pace is way too slow to get through the curriculum, and that the academic level in the class isn’t demanding or challenging in the least. D1 tried the AP Environmental Science course in the regular school a couple of years ago, and gave up in disgust after a week of learning about how to organize your notebook and look at the course outline. By that point, her magnet AP courses were well into solid reading, lectures, discussions, problem sets and essays. Not surprisingly, the regular school’s AP test results are awful. </p>
<p>A few regular school kids take some APs in the magnet, and generally do fine because they’ve self-selected. They know what they’re signing up for. Most regular school kids who want the grade bump from APs take the regular school APs, because they’ll get an “A” instead of a “C” or worse. </p>
<p>Because of staffing cutbacks, some of the magnet AP courses are taught by regular school AP teachers this year. D1 reports that these are the classes which are taught to the test. </p>
<p>I think that the AP program of my high school years, 30-some years ago, was excellent. Five AP courses total. Four AP tests. Each class used college text books–I think we had 7 books for APUSH and 5 for Chem. Real science labs. Though it might pain Jay Matthews (of Newsweek’s “top high schools” fame) to hear it, admission to AP wasn’t open–it depended on your grades and teacher recommendations. I used some of the credits for breadth requirements, others to place out of intro courses, and enrolled in an honors intro class for a subject that was a possible major. Absolutely no problems adjusting academically at a very demanding state flagship. In short, the AP experience prepared me beautifully for college. That’s what we should be aiming for for all students, and that doesn’t necessarily mean throwing everyone into a super-demanding high school curriculum. We walk the walk–D2 is at a high school which offers no AP courses.</p>
<p>Gods, they are not! However, they tend to know what happens in their own classrooms! </p>
<p>And, fwiw, it is extremely unfortunate that Harvard has not shown MORE leadership on this issue and delayed sending a strong message by reducing the credits to a bare minimum. </p>
<p>The study, which found no significant correlation between AP scores and grades, adds to the ongoing debate among educators over the weight placed on AP exam scores.</p>
<p>At Harvard “AP Biology does not substitute for any concentration requirement in biology”—including the requirement that concentrators must take an introductory course, according to the undergraduate student handbook. Freshmen who scored 4 or 5 on the AP exam in chemistry can enroll in a sophomore level Chemistry Department course, according to the undergraduate course catalogue. </p>
<p>Gordon McKay Professor of Applied Physics Eric Mazur, who served on the development committee for AP Physics from 1995-2000, said that the correlation between AP science exam scores and performance in college is weak.</p>
<p>“In my class, I have had students with absolutely no physics background do better than people who make a 5 on the AP exam,” Mazur, who co-teaches the Physics Department’s introductory-level year-long sequence, said.</p>
<p>**Mazur said that AP exams “do a disservice to higher education.”</p>
<p>“They are geared as a model that rewards ‘plug and chuck’ and memorization,” Mazur said. “You look at a problem and say what equation should be used without understanding.”**
And Higgins Professor of Biology Daniel L. Hartl, who co-teaches the spring semester course in the year-long introductory Life Sciences sequence, wrote in an e-mail, **“From what my students know, and don’t know, I can only infer that most AP biology courses do not have the depth or rigor to justify testing out of a college course.” **</p>
<p>The study—which included 500 students who had taken AP exams—found that their grades were not significantly different from those of students who had not taken the advanced courses previously, Sadler said.</p>
<p>Students who bypass the introductory level courses with AP scores eventually perform worse in higher level courses, Sadler said, citing additional findings of the study.</p>
<p>Sadler said he feels that the AP exam should not qualify students to skip introductory level college courses. AP classes are good preparation for first-year courses, but should not be used as a substitute, he added.
<p>I wonder what type of high schools were in the study. As others have pointed out, an honors course at a top prep school may be more rigorous than an AP, but what about an honors course at a low performing public school? Are those students just as prepared for college as a kid who took honors English at Exeter? They also seem to imply that kids who do dual credit are just as prepared. However, dual credit can mean a course at a community college or a course at a 4 year university. Our local community college is not rigorous , and many students take dual credit because it is known to be significantly easier than equivalent AP courses and because the state universities have to accept the courses without taking any type of test. I wonder if they differentiated between types of dual credit courses.</p>
<p>One of the worst practices that our IB program initially engaged in was rotating teachers in and out of the program year-by-year. It takes sustained training and time to develop the skills needed to effectively teach an AP or an IB course, and much is learned over the course of three or four years of teaching the same course and learning how students then do on the AP/IB exam. Some teachers also lack the knowledge to teach the AP course: in our state, Social Studies teachers are credentialed with a Social Studies endorsement if they majored in any of the Social Sciences. The SS teacher who majored in Anthropology or Economics may not have had the academic preparation to teach AP European History, and the science teacher with the degree in physics might not be qualified to teach AP Bio, though each might be okay teaching the regular level course.</p>
<p>My kids must have gone to very atypical schools because the kids who got 4’s and 5’s were actually smarter and more curious than the kids who got 2’s and 3’s who were smarter than the kids who didn’t attempt AP classes. In an even more odd coincidence those with 4’s and 5’s scored very well on the SAT test, and even more odd they had the best grades in the school. In fact virtually all of the Cum Laude kids did exceptionally well in all these areas. I guess we haven’t figured the new reality out here in hicksville yet.</p>
<p>@SM - We have the same coincidences here in Florida. I find it amazing that some folks take general findings from any given study and use it to justify their situations.</p>
<p>Being from Florida as well, I can assure you that that there is no definite causation between students’ intelligence and their AP scores. Many of my friends did poorly on select AP exams due to a lack of effort when it came down to the memorization and regurgitation that is most AP courses. Also, AP courses don’t mean much when you get to college. The entirety of AP Physics/Chemistry/Biology is covered within the first seven or eight weeks of the appropriate classes at my college, which is why students do not receive credit for either their AP scores or (quite often, actually) transfer credits.</p>
<p>In addition to what others already pointed out, I wonder if the study has taken into account the possibility that the AP students opted to attend higher ranked colleges where they end up with lower GPA because they were being graded along with kids who also had the best high school preparation. </p>
<p>Also, there are inherent differences in the number of APs offered at different high schools across the country. The top students at high school A may only be allowed to take one AP their junior year, whereas at high school B, even the average student has access to multiple APs. At school A the honor courses have all the brightest students (and possibly the best teachers available), and the standard of teaching and the quality of the student body at the honors level may be the same as the AP level courses at its peer school B. It’s similar to what others already said regarding the difference in the quality of AP courses at different high schools.</p>
<p>Had an interesting experience at a super selective liberal school. In order to apply to their engineering department they had just added a requirement for a second science/math related SAT subject test. Asked the admissions counselor why and they said because the engineering department was fed up with admissions sending so many unprepared students to their department who very quickly transferred out.</p>
<p>I think if you speak to engineering departments and education departments you will find 2 very different perspectives on the validity of testing.</p>
<p>All of that sounds very logical. Students who take a more rigorous curriculum are usually considered the “smart bunch” in HS. I might even wager that students who have a higher GPA are considered smarter than the ones who have lower GPAs. </p>
<p>All logical and true! But also irrelevant to the findings of the Harvard and UVa researchers. Their point is that, when it comes to performance in COLLEGE, they do not find any meaningful difference between students who participated in the AP program and those who did not. </p>
<p>In a nutshell what might be true at one particular high school might not be at a high school that offers a number of alternative programs. All you need to do is read Newsweek/Jay Mathews moromic list of the “best” HS in the country to appreaciate that part.</p>
Well, this confirms my relief that both my kids ended up re-taking the entry level courses in college (Statistics and Economics) that they had taken as APs in hs. </p>
<p>OTOH, S got a 5 on the AP Spanish exam, moved straight to Spanish literature classes and had no trouble. But he was placed out of the language classes due to his SAT II score, not due to his AP score.</p>
<p>There are 2 things AP has going for it that aren’t discussed in this book:
AP exams are a common exam thru the country, so like the SATs they seem to be able to allow admissions officers to do a comparison between high schools. Even within a given high school, Mr L may be a much harder grader than Mrs T, but a 5 on the AP test is a 5 on the AP test.
Stupid people still believe “Newsweek/Jay Mathews moronic list of the ‘best’ HS” - isn’t that purely based on the % of kids who take AP tests? What a ridiculous criteria.</p>
<p>AP tests were not supposedly designed for admissions purposes - they were designed to give hs kids access to college-level courses, and allow them to either save money or take other courses in college. But it seems a lot of people think they have a huge influence in admissions - does anyone know if that is really true?</p>
<p>Most people are in a bubble - especially Harvard researchers!
Do they have any idea of what studies like this do to urban districts struggling to retain and attract taxpaying families?
People in such districts, more than anyone else, need to advocate for their high achieving students or all will be lost!
These high achieving students deserve to be in class with other high achieving students! AP classes are a way for this to happen.
I would love to invite these Harvard researchers to visit some of the classrooms where kids are unmotivated and low achieving (they may be “honors”, but this is a loose definition). I can guarantee that they would not want their kids in there.
As far as the teachers go - we need to advocate for “goodness of fit” between the teachers and students. Some teachers excel at teaching the low achieving or high achieving kids.</p>
<p>Why wouldn’t they study AP students who got 4’s or 5’s-after all a 4 or 5 is generally considered a score that means you would do well in a college level course. Wouldn’t surprise me if someone scoring a 1 or 2 on an AP test would not in general do well in advanced college courses. Me thinks the reason they did not do this is because it wouldn’t give them the results for which they were looking.</p>
<p>How can one correlate AP scores with GPAs more selective given all of the grade inflation (especially at places like Harvard. Their inflation is worse than ours)? I mean, I suppose it’s doable in the sciences, but not outside (besides, an AP History/political science course is not similar in pedagogy to one in a college, especially a selective college. The teaching style/perspectives analyzed are generally completely different). I know, for sciences, Emory normally lets AP bio and Chem, exempt the student from the first semester of the sequence and not the second. Bio II here is much more genetics/molecular genetics intensive than AP, so even a 5 from most will not mean exposure to that material, and people who exempt chem. 1, tend to have disappointing starts in chem. 2 if only because of them being rusty (as expected b/c most standardized tests don’t encourage retaining of info./content). As more selective colleges have extremely plentiful and accessible learning resources, it is completely probable for a student not exposed to the material to out-perform those exposed. Most didn’t have things like office hours, SI, free peer tutoring, learning specialists, etc. in HS. I sure didn’t. Also student, especially freshmen, attitudes play a part. I know many with AP credit come in cocky and some tend to slip because of it. For example, students here with 4-5s in AP chem. can take the extremely difficult (as in as difficult/more difficult than the most difficult upperclassmen organic sections mainly b/c of the prof. who was also notorious when he taught upperclassmen) freshmen organic section. Many actually come in believing that their 5 in something equivalent to a semester of general chemistry means so much and end up doing pretty badly and/or mediocre (another reason is b/c they think the prof. will go easier since they are freshmen). The same goes for those who take chem. 1 and do chem. 2 in spring. Many of them do very poorly on their first exams unfortunately. And the thing is, a good bit of the stuff in chem. 2 was seen in AP, yet I would see many of my friends w/AP credit just mess up terribly on that exam, and some would recover nicely and others wouldn’t. </p>
<p>Basically part of it could be letting the HS background go to the head plus the fact that selective colleges have so many resources in place to level the playing field for the inexperienced if they use it.</p>
<p>Do poorly-taught AP courses that provide inadequate preparation for the exams improve college success? Probably not, and I don’t see that as surprising.
Is this result from colleges not accepting AP credit? If not, it’s worthless because most AP students who take a first-year college course in the same area as their exam probably failed the test. If they had passed, they wouldn’t need to take the intro course.
Based on his Wikipedia page - with a citation from The Week Magazine - Bill Gates earned a 1590/1600. I’d guess that Zuckerberg did pretty well too, since he got into Harvard.</p>
<p>The authors don’t seem to have any problem with AP exams. Based on my research, they actually appear to view the exams as rigorous and well-conceived. What they critique is the implementation of AP courses in schools where students are too poorly prepared to pass the exams. CollegeBoard would like to have these unprepared students pay their $86 anyway, and the authors disagree.
Why is teaching to prepare students for an examination mutually exclusive with any of the things you discuss?</p>
What research is this? Do you have a quote from the authors? I’m not disputing you, but this statement is a little vague.</p>
<p>Since I personally find a great variety of exam rigor across the spectrum of AP subjects, I think this is a bit of a sweeping generalization. The question is whether an AP exam tests ability at a university level. In the case of AP Physics C, maybe. At least almost. In the case of several other exams, I don’t believe so, which is why I frequently enjoin people to check out sample exam questions at the Collegeboard site.</p>
<p>In some cases, I feel the SAT 2 exams (designed to test high school level ability) are nearly as difficult, if not more difficult than AP exams. I don’t think I’m alone in that assessment.</p>
<p>^ See both the summary articles I linked to in my post.</p>
<p>EDIT: You want the IHE article and the presentation labeled “this”.</p>
<p>EDIT #2: I believe the study covered math and science APs. More to the point, this entire thread is an overgeneralization, for the same reasons.</p>
<p>^^^
I can’t seem to get the “this” article to download, I’d be curious to read its statistics.</p>
<p>Reading the IHE article summary, it looks to me like the opinions are mixed. I really can’t extract a consensus for the notion that the exams are well conceived and rigorous from that article, which is why I asked for a quote.</p>
<p>Edit-
I see that the IHE article is about the book.</p>
<p>Edit 2-
From the summary I guess one could infer that the authors don’t have a problem with the exams. At least they omit the exams from their criticism, which it seems is mainly directed at the overexpansion of the classes to students who are ill prepared to succeed in them. </p>
<p>I’d actually have to read the entire book to really know what the thesis is. And that’s not likely.</p>
) “regular” course in the mix? </p>
D1 tried the AP Environmental Science course in the regular school a couple of years ago, and gave up in disgust after a week of learning about how to organize your notebook and look at the course outline. By that point, her magnet AP courses were well into solid reading, lectures, discussions, problem sets and essays. Not surprisingly, the regular school’s AP test results are awful. </p>