Books and Marines

Parents Forum
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<p>I was hoping some parents might know students who've gone to Great Books style colleges, namely St. John's or Thomas Aquinas. Any testimonies from either of these schools would be great, especially if anyone can compare them. I've heard negative things said about both, mainly that people at Thomas Aquinas (Tommies? Aquis? Quinies?) are often unwilling to broaden their minds, and that Johnnies on the other hand can be quick to dismiss religion to an almost nihilistic extent. I've also heard (and this is my main concern) that many freshmen and sophomores at St. John's are clearly not interested in the readings, are potheads and drunks, waste time, etc. and often ruin seminars for everyone else by not taking them seriously, and are only weeded out sometime around junior year. </p>

<p>Also, while my mind is pretty much set between these, I've been advised (commanded by sceptical parents) to consider some more options as well. Does anyone know any comparable schools?</p>

<p>Next, does anyone have any experience with joining the Marines? I want to join either the Marines or the Marines Reserve, but I don't want to be caught in active duty for four years before I can attend college. My ideal plan would be to enlist, go through boot camp, basic training, etc. right out of high school, but then to go college for four years before serving active duty. I know the Marines have some sort of full time college options, but only at select schools (and I doubt St. John's and Thomas Aquinas are among them). I will eventually get in touch with a recruiter, but I'm worried that such an arrangement will be dismissed with a "Wait... you're saying you want us to train you how to kill, then pay for you to be trained how to think (at an expensive LAC no less) and then expect you to come back after those four years ready to serve?"</p>

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<p>Limon, in case you haven't noticed, there is a war going on which has taxed US military resources to the limits. If you want to go to war, join the Marines - they definitely have a place for you. Now. If you don't want to go to war, then stay very, very far away from any military recruiter's office.</p>

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<p>Okay. Right off the bat, I'll tell you that I don't know much about the Marine Corps.</p>

<p>The full time college options that the Marine Corps offers aren't quite as good as St. John's and Thomas Aquinas. I am not sure of the GI Bill arrangements that the Marine Corps offers, however, I have a friend in the Marine Corps reserve who's shipping to Iraq a few months after he finishes basic training.</p>

<p>Have you considered SROTC as an option? That would be better. Go to Thomas Aquinas or a nearby school which offers SROTC, sign up for one of their scholarships, and receive a commission in the US Marine Corps for four years. Sure, it may be active duty (or reserve is six years) but .. you have your degree?</p>

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<p>Re: The Marines. Do your research very very carefully. There are clauses which allow the military to keep you beyond the length of the contracted term in times of war, ie now.</p>

<p>That said, what kind of student are you? If you are very bright, you may well be sent into intelligence or officer training. I know a young man who graduated with a music degree from a private university and is serving the last of his four years as an intelligence officer in the US. However, his 55 year old father, a helicopter pilot reservist, is serving the last months of a year long tour in Iraq.</p>

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<p>I'm aware of that, that's why I'm so apprehensive about enlisting - whether it's feasible to go through training and not have to immediately ship out to the Middle East. If it's a signed contract thing, then there can be a guarantee that I would not have to immediately be on active duty, and I was hoping someone would know if that can/has happened.</p>

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<p>(Wow, thanks for the quick replies!)</p>

<p>Tlaktan - I am looking into SROTC now. </p>

<p>Cheers - Honestly, I would be more comfortable serving in Iraq than the U.S. The required active duty years are a chance to give back to your country what you owe it, and it seems for the next few years it will need more help in Iraq than elsewhere. As to what type of student I am, I'm not sure what you mean. If there's to be more training, then let there be training, but I don't want to be forced to replace a Great Books education with a military one.</p>

<p>Joining the Marines at 17 as opposed to 21 isn't my big concern. If it's impossible to guarantee going to one of those colleges after enlisting, then I will get my degree and join the Marines after college. I was hopeful because I have this mad desire to go through boot camp, and because the military can offer substantial aid in paying.</p>

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<p>I almost enlisted in the military but then decided to go to college and enroll in Air Force ROTC (I'm no longer enrolled in it though). Personally, I don't see why you want to enlist and then go straight to college before going on active duty. If you want to go to college immediately and do military later I would join ROTC. At the school I went to you would join Navy ROTC and do the Marines option. </p>

<p>But I suppose the question is whether or not you want to be an enlisted soldier or an officer. When I talked to an enlistment recruiter I kept mentioning the options of going to college and he cleverly avoided a straight answer and even told me why ROTC was a bad choice. Basically, going to college was not a concern of his. So from my point of view the best way to have a college degree and a military career is to get a degree and enlist afterwards, or go to college and going ROTC to become an officer. Enlisting will not guarantee you a chance to go to college. The captain in my AFROTC unit was enlisted for 14 years before he could finally get his degree and become an officer.</p>

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<p>I have this mad desire to go through boot camp</p>

<p>That's a very revealing statement. Do you have a mentor or priest to talk to? Deciding to go to war should not be a 'mad' or impulsive decision.</p>

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<p>Haha, I've talked it over with someone I would consider a mentor. Honestly, I say a mad desire because most people I've known in the military (parents work at overseas embassies) have considered boot camp to be something they had to go through to be in the military, while I would find boot camp pretty ideal in itself. Maybe this is only "mad" where I live, but I think it would be very valuable to spend a year having my physical and mental endurance tested to their limits. In short - I want to go to boot camp to be a better person (and I'm ready to admit it's a selfish reason to join the military). There are certain things I don't think I can learn at St. John's or Thomas Aquinas, things I want to have with me when I get there (discipline, better physical conditioning, a practical application of my martial art as a prep for the martial art I plan to join later, loyalty, etc...). I (and my mentor) have known people before and after they went through boot camp, and the change is amazing. They are more determined, efficient, responsible, in control, and so on. If I go to one of these schools straight out of hs I'm afraid of being unable to live up to it (a great books school is practically heaven for me... and expensive). I don't know if I'm making sense... but lo, there's an Aristotle quote (that my mentor is very fond of)... well, I don't know the quote, but the gist of it that before intellectual training, one must learn self-discipline through gymnastics (martial arts). The other option I was considering (although it won't pay for college) was literally apprenticing myself to a martial arts master for a year (there are many watered down martial arts, I mean the very traditional, demanding martial arts), although this would probably not have the same immediacy or urgency about it. My TKD instructor often talks about the honesty of our practice when we are confronted with the real deal (modern day Rangers/Marines, and Hwa Rang Do masters).</p>

<p>I realize I should probably reconsider my motives and aims in this whole affair. </p>

<p>Thank you for your advice, Justinmeche.</p>

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<p>I would find boot camp pretty ideal in itself</p>

<p>Somehow, you're not reassuring me, limon. Let me ask you this, do your parents and friends think you would be a good candidate for boot camp? I ask this because, from time to time, my younger S says he would love to go to boot camp. He says this because he loves strategy games and he is immature. </p>

<p>That boy would last approximately one minute in boot camp. He takes orders like a disobedient kitty cat; plus he has an anti-authoritarian streak that's miles wide.</p>

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<p>Limon, have you looked into the service academies? I'm just curious...I was considering the US Naval Academy last spring and attended the Summer Seminar there. I met many kids who, like you, simply had a deep urge to be a part of the military and experience things like boot camp (or midshipman life). I understand Cheers' concern that you may be rushing into things; however, if you are making a mature,carefully thought out decision, I commend you. I have the highest admiration for those who serve in our nation's service, and the honor of doing so carries as much "prestige" in my eyes as any college degree. Good luck in your search.</p>

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<p>Actually, my husband felt the same way when he joined the navy many years ago right out of college. He couldn't wait to get to boot camp --- he knew he needed the discipline and he enjoyed the challenge. He still says his time in boot camp was the BEST time of his life. Yes it was tough - very tough - but he felt that he gained so much from the experience and made some tremendous friends in the process (who he still keeps in touch with all these years later). He believes very strongly that time in the armed forces can be a very maturing experience for those who are not quite sure of what they want to do with their life or who are not ready for college.</p>

<p>One thing to consider is that the marines will still be there in four years - with a college degree, you enter as an officer, not an enlisted marine. That can mean better pay, more challenging leadership assignments, etc. </p>

<p>However, I agree with both Cheers and Cavelier - this isn't something to rush into but the military can be a very fulfilling career. I also have high respect for those who choose this route of service to our country.</p>

<p>Regarding colleges, there are plenty of colleges that offer a "great books" type seminar the first year. Or, you might want to think about the possibilty of one of the military academies -- can you tell us a bit more about your stats so we can give you some recommendations?</p>

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<p>Limon, you are romanticizing boot camp and you are romanticizing college. You are intrigued by the idea of the discipline and physical and mental challenge -- that is why you are attracted to the classic, "Great Books" type of education. If you want to choose your college based on this romanticized idea of academia -- I see no harm in that - you will certainly get a good education that way.</p>

<p>But romanticizing the military is a dangerous thing. I would suggest that you spend some time at a veteran's hospital to get a dose of reality. Boot camp does not last a year - it is 12 weeks. Combat tours of duty do last a year -- and often are extended beyond a year. Only I have a feeling that for the people deployed, it seems more like "forever".</p>

<p>Try reading these articles for a dose of reality:</p>

<p>"A Flood of Troubled Soldiers"
<a href="http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/121704X.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/121704X.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"U.S. soldiers' suicide rate up in Iraq"
<a href="http://www.notinourname.net/troops/suicide-14jan04.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.notinourname.net/troops/suicide-14jan04.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Obviously I could come up with a lot more. It doesn't matter what your political views are regarding the war - the fact is that there is a mismatch between your military aspirations and your academic aspirations. But the point is that there are a significant number of traumatized and disillusioned soldiers coming out of Iraq -- on top of the thousands of seriously wounded, some with lifelong, debilitating injuries. </p>

<p>If you just want personal challenge, I'd suggest that you ask your parents to sign you up for Outward Bound. Don't go into the military unless and until you are thinking in terms of what you are going to give... NOT what you are going to get.</p>

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<p>Cheers - I don't know how to reassure you. For me military service is an inevitable part of my life. Whether I join out of high school or later, I do plan to enlist, and possibly spend most of my life in military service. This might be a very immature impulse, I simply see it as something I want to do at some point in my life, for my personal experience and as a chance to give back to the US. The US government has given me the chance to live in five different countries where I have seen what the marines deal with. If it helps, it seems like I'll be putting the military on hold until after college.
I don't know how to tell if I'm right for the military. I don't have a problem with authority, I deal well with pressure, and my limited experience with martial arts has given me some perspective about physical discipline. None of this is, of course, a guarantee that I would last through the first few weeks of boot camp.</p>

<p>Cavalier - I have several friends who applied to service academies, including one who was very happy to be accepted early into the Coast Guard. They are certainly good schools, but they don't offer what I'm looking for, which is a traditional liberal arts education.</p>

<p>Carolyn - Thank you for sharing that, it's good to know I'm not alone. =) It's beginning to look like my best option is to wait on the military until after college. If, at the end of it, I still feel strongly that I should join the military, well, we'll see.
My problem is that I have absolutely no interest in anything other than a great books (or another very traditional liberal arts) education. It's becoming increasing clear to those who know me well and to me that I would not be happy with a "regular" degree in the humanities. This is why it's rather alarming to my parents that I've already narrowed my choices to those three, Thomas Aquinas and the two St. John's campuses. Umm.. I actually don't know my stats (my other problem is that I've always been oblivious to numbers and grades). I'm currently doing the IB Diploma program, although I'm dropping to 5 certificates after this semester. I'm a good writer and reader, the only class I struggle in is math, otherwise I do well, although I'm not an exceptional student. Sorry, I know this is vauge. The only actual stat I know is a PSAT score of 200, which doesn't say much. I've lived overseas for 15 out of 16 years, </p>

<p>Calmom - In what way do I romanticize college?
It's entirely my fault that I've given you the impression that I am only thinking about the military in terms of my personal benefit. I realize the sacrifices and risks involved, and I am willing to enlist simply for the chance to <em>serve</em> in the US military.
Those were good articles, thanks.</p>

<p>I feel like I'm dismissing most of what's been said, but I didn't expect so many replies concerning the military. Anything I say about the Marines is still only in the realm of possibility. What is most useful right now is knowledge/experience regarding St. John's/Thomas Aquinas.</p>

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<p>I highly do urge you to reconsider the Marine Corps option, however. Why not the other service branches (including Army)? They offer similar basic training methods in the Army and Marine Corps (some say Army is better) and in addition, Army offers a lot more AROTC scholarships than the Marine Corps. </p>

<p>Oh, and if you go in as an officer (which I would suggest) you're being commissioned, not enlisting. =D.</p>

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<p>limon,
My S attended Thomas Aquinas College this past summer for their Great Books summer program. If you are a junior, you can apply now to attend this July and actually experience the program for yourself. The prices are reasonable and kids from all over the U.S. go and have a great time. My S liked it quite a bit, liked the tutors (as the professors are called) but ultimately found that the campus was too religious and too isolated from city life for his tastes.</p>

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<p>I was thinking about you last night. You didn't say whether you are a junior or a senior. If you are a junior, I'd suggest you ask your parents about the possibility of visiting a few different colleges over spring break or over next summer. I'd try to visit one of the great book programs, a small liberal arts college, and a larger university. If you did Thomas Aquinas, you could visit Occidental College or Pomona College (Liberal arts) and University of Southern California (large uni) on the same trip. Take the tour, talk to students and professors, explore your options. College offers the chance to take lots of classes in subjects that high school does not - while a particular subject hasn't thrilled you in high school, you will probably find one that does in college. You can also talk with a military recruiter about the specifics of that experience. Meanwhile, you might want to take a look at the websites of some of these colleges - take a look particularly at their freshman experience required classes, as well as their course catalogs: Whitman College <a href="http://www.whitman.edu%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.whitman.edu&lt;/a>, Reed College <a href="http://www.reed.edu%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.reed.edu&lt;/a>, Lawrence University, <a href="http://www.lawrence.edu%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.lawrence.edu&lt;/a>. You might also take a look at the web sites of some of the service academies (try West Point or the Naval Academy) or colleges with a military feel (The citadel in South Carolina). These are just a few suggestions.</p>

<p>If you're a senior, it sounds like you are not really ready yet to make a commitment to either college or the military. I'd suggest you do a year at a local community college, take various courses that interest you, and give yourself time to think about your options.</p>

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<p>My son is a Marine. He went to 2 years of college first & decided to join when he felt undirected. He loves the military. That said, once you sign, they can basically do whatever they want with you. (besides switch you from a technical job to infantry) I felt safe that our son is in a technical position - until Christmas when he informed us that even technical people are being sent to Iraq to "help out." He said he wouldn't be put on the front lines, but could be sent to patrol other areas "farther back." So if that scares you don't sign up. The military is stretched right now. People in all branches are having their tours extended. We have heard stories in our community of people who thought they were done & had started college being called back. If you feel you MUST go through boot camp why not try for an NROTC scholarship? Maybe you could create a great books type curriculum at a university ? A friend of my other son goes to Virginia Tech on an NROTC scholarship & he loves the huge military element there. He has friends who are majoring in nontechnical things. Big decision. Good luck.</p>

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<p>I understand your passion to get into the discipline thing, Limon, but I must warn you. I'm a high school student, yes, but I've known many people who've gone off to boot (basic training in the Army) that have been my former battalion commanders, etc., Some of them have come back well trained (like my BC) others.. are still the jerks they have been. You may be able to find your discipline elsewhere. </p>

<p>Nevertheless, if you still are deciding to enlist or receive a commission from the Marine Corps, I would highly advise you do read the fine print and know what MOS (Specialty) that you go into. Make sure your intended MOS is on paper and it's not an oral contract, either, unless it's backed up by a written one.</p>

<p>Bah. I'm rambling.</p>

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<p>Wow, considering St John's. You must be a very interesting person. Good luck!</p>