Boston Globe: A higher bar for future teachers

Parent Cafe
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<p>epiphany, I don't think midmo expects teachers to assume parental roles. Her point is that at risk kids are more adversely affected than the kid from a stable home. When my ADD son had a third grade math teacher who admitted to me in a conference that, "I told the kids that I hate math!" I was able to teach him at home. I sure did resent the wasted time in that woman's classroom, though. I actually had to go in and show her that asking questions on a test about a pie-chart that referred to colors was not a great idea if the zerox was in black & white. It is teachers like her that sour the public on the profession. We just want tenure abolished & standards raised. Or that woman will be teaching 30 more classes of third graders and dousing any spark they might bring to math class.</p>

<p>From your posts, I believe that you are not a fan of tenure or unions & approach your job with an excellent attitude & bring credentials and teaching gifts that make your students lucky to have you. I know that the layers of bureaucracy & politics are not easily removed by teachers who must work under them. My beef is with teachers who want to hang on to their job security so tightly that they are willing to protect the duds. That, to me, is throwing the kids under the bus.</p>

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<p>I also enjoyed your post about not having a bad day, but having a challenging one. That was the attitude that seperated good sales reps from the unsuccessful ones. I was a sales manager years ago & we sold marketing products and advertising. If a client complained about anything, some reps would grumble and resent the time spent, rather than accept this as part of their job. I always told them problems aren't nuisances....They are your job calling. An opportunity to interact in a positive way with a client & develop more trust & loyalty.</p>

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<p>Midmo has a point. A bad teacher, in a self contained classrroom, can do untold damage on a child.</p>

<p>My own daughter is testament to that, having survived not one, but two years, of beyond dreadful teachers, who believed in collective punishment (one kid talks, the whole class stays in for recess), favortism (so some kids got special treatment, while the rest were soundly ignored), routinized busy work (endless, idiotic worksheets, day in and day out), done as nonstop "seat work". One year there was even a bully in the class, mercilessly mistreating kids, and the teacher did not intervene, despite my repeated phone calls and emails alerting her to the problem.</p>

<p>My daughter complained about school every single day. She cried, said she hated school. And we are an academic family, who values education. I simply could not take any further risks with her educational future. At great expense, she is now in private school, and thriving.</p>

<p>I don't indict the wonderful teachers I have known and that my children have been lucky enough to have. I really think it takes a very special indiviudal to get up every day and face what our teachers have to face. I have utmost respect and admiration for those who do their jobs well.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, there are those who don't, and a system that supports their mediocrity. Until that changes, the system is broken, as far as I am concerned.</p>

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<p>*She yelled at us the following words: "We don't give a damn what middle-class parents want! We are here to see that the poor get what they need." (Well, I grew up as one of "the poor" and what I needed was exactly the same thing the middle class kids needed.) *</p>

<p>precisely</p>

<p>
[quote]
SEATTLE - Just the mere satisfaction should be enough that you've done well.</p>

<p>The fifth graders at Van Asselt Elementary did better than well. They did great on the WASL exam. They went in prepared.</p>

<p>"Like reading strategies, math strategies and also writing strategies, " says 5th grader Devotion Charles.</p>

<p>It paid off big time.</p>

<p>75%, 69%, and 63% of the class passed in the 3 R's: reading, writing, and 'Rithmetic.</p>

<p>South Seattle's Van Asselt is one of three elementary schools in the state that made the greatest improvements. John Muir and Thorndyke Elementary schools were the two others.</p>

<p>Van Asselt's WASL scores more than quadrupled from seven years ago when teacher Lissa Munger started.</p>

<p>"It wasn't like this, no," says Munger who taught 4th grade last year, and teaches 5th grade this year. </p>

<p>Back then, this school was on a federal list of failing schools. Now? They just received the 2006 Apple Award from the Office of Superintendent of Public Instruction, and a $25,000 check to honor the accomplishment.</p>

<p>"How many of you are working real hard on your writing and your math?" Principal Turner asks students in the hallway. A dozen students quickly raised their hands.</p>

<p>The award to Van Asselt is a big deal when you consider the students at this school are considered among the poorest in the state. Four out of five students here qualify for a free lunch. And four out of five students are from homes where English is a second language.</p>

<p>So what's the secret? Two things: They don't teach to the WASL test, and they teach to the most gifted in class. The idea: bring everyone else up.</p>

<p>It's clearly working.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>so whats the difference?
It isn't the kids- they are among the most challenged in the city
<a href="http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=danny10&date=20060910&source=st%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=danny10&date=20060910&source=st&lt;/a>
could it be the teaching?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Test scores released last week show Van Asselt now ranks in the top 20 of Seattle's 67 elementary and K-8 schools. More kids there passed all three parts of the Washington Assessment of Student Learning, the WASL, than at some of the city's most sought-after primary schools, such as TOPS, Stevens and John Stanford International in Wallingford.</p>

<p>None of those elite schools faces poverty challenges on the same scale as Van Asselt. It is one of 17 elementaries in Seattle in which at least three-fourths of the kids are poor enough to get free lunch. Test scores at these South End schools routinely are the city's lowest. The biggest exception, by far, is now Van Asselt

[/quote]
</p>

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<p>I've certainly never criticized a teacher for not performing parental duties! One of my major beefs with modern schooling is that schools now want to be the parents (non-academic focus of curriculum). Notice I said "schools" not teachers; I'm well aware the shift in school focus is not supported by many, or even most, teachers.</p>

<p>I do criticize teachers who are too lazy or distracted to spell their students' names correctly on the little cards taped to the desks for parent visitation night--these are first names, mind you. (D 2nd grade teacher). I do criticize teachers who send groups of second graders out into the hall to "work on" writing their stories together, unsupervised. I have a long list of such stories, because I have always been an active volunteer in the schools, and much of what I have seen is distressing. </p>

<p>I was willing to give a pass to a couple of teachers at the elementary school when they had very young children, in one case a new-born. Then, they proceeded to have two more, in both cases, in the next three years. I do not believe it is acceptable to allow teachers to perform inadequately for five years or more because they have "problems" or responsibilities at home. The rest of the world does not work like that.</p>

<p>Teachers are not responsible for most of the problems in the schools. Agreed.</p>

<p>But the lack of accountability in the present system makes it far more likely that good teachers will drift into mediocrity, and untalented teachers will never be encouraged to find a line of work in which they will do less damage to other people's kids. </p>

<p>All of which are only tangentially related to the original post's suggestions that teacher training needs to be updated. So, with that, I retire from this thread, and wish the best to all teachers and all parents.</p>

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<p>Here's an example of a teacher failing to use common sense because she was following policy. I was working at a school book fair as the cahier. A 2nd grade boy comes to check out & he is wearing one of those punk rock type leather bracelets with inch long metal spikes! I immediately asked the teacher if she had seen it. She had. I asked why he was allowed to wear a dangerous weapon (let's face it, a 7 year old could easily use that as a weapon, even accidentally) and she replied that she had to discuss it with the principal. She is one of the veterans.</p>

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<p>The reality to keep uppermost in everyone’s thoughts is that if parents believe that there is a critical mass of bad teachers at most public schools -- which I agree is, would be, intolerable – what you are seeing is partly the result of attrition.(In addition to the other reasons I’ve enumerated, reasons connected with the system itself.) In my youth the overwhelming majority of teachers in every public school was excellent. Every school had one misplaced, inappropriately placed, or simply bad teacher, but the reverse proportions were never true. With the compounding & conflating of roles imposed on the classroom teacher, many excellent veteran teachers began to burn out & leave beginning in the second half of the ‘70’s. With the cost of living increasing in the last 20 yrs, relative to teacher salaries (esp., for “fresh blood” teachers, where the enthusiasm & idealism often resides), excellent teachers left in even greater numbers – often soon after starting. And with employment opportunities in the corporate world opening up for women dramatically in the ‘80’s, the massive exit continued. Truly capable people tend not to tolerate impossible conditions for extended periods of time. And as I’ve mentioned elsewhere, great teachers tend to be exceptionally intelligent. Therefore they quickly see how their talents will be undermined, diverted, sabotaged, & ravaged in dysfunctional environments. I keep one toe in the classroom because I have a variety of other educational roles & it’s important for me to stay current.</p>

<p>What remains in public schools are (1) new teachers who haven’t yet figured out the above realities; (2) veteran committed teachers who are there out of passion & mission (too few of those); (3) teachers bad or good who are tolerating intolerable conditions because of practical convenience/lack of practical options having to do with geography or lifestyle; (4) perenially bad teachers who are tolerated by districts because there is no or little viable competition for those jobs. That fourth element is critical to remember. Very few hot candidates are beating down the doors of district headquarters, whereas many hot graduates from top business schools are beating down the doors of banks, corporations, tech companies, etc.</p>

<p>The school system(s) will not change until the public roars loudly in concert – not just demanding overhaul, but coming up with workable alternative models to explore. I’m not going to engage in union-bashing, but I am indeed going to remind union supporters that unions have opposed radical reform of public education for the last 30 years, & done so powerfully. Everyone should have a voice – including teachers within unions, but not, I believe, as an institutional entity (a union). That merely makes it a game of muscle, not to mention affecting credibility of such a voice or voices. </p>

<p>Please also remember that the big fight will be the political fight over what to do with, about, the large population in publics with a span of social ills that interfere with the teaching task. The 80% of my class of yesterday belonged in a variety of environments: some in special classes, some in a non-traditional school, and at least 2 in juvenile hall. Five of them belonged in my classroom (the 4 without problems + a fifth who is a fabulous child with an ADHD problem which was addressed with temporary structured pull-out yesterday; he was fine with that & returned to be fully productive). In an efficient model, students would be prescreened for appropriate placement – not to be placed in a regular classroom if they could not self-manage without disruption to others. Where, and how, would their alternative care & education be paid for? Twenty-five year old parents of 10 year olds cannot likely pay for pricey private alternatives. Should those children be inexpenively warehoused at taxpayer cost? Should teenagers be forewarned that they will be charged a hefty tax if children that they bear end up needing institutional care – as a disincentive to early pregnancy?</p>

<p>Should the entire system be “privatized,” with the public being charged in a state or national flat tax scheme, allowing for creativity & local control to re-emerge? (A regional voucher system enabling universal access within that locale) I put privatize in quotes because the character of the schools would remain public in terms of content & mission (nonsectarian, etc.).</p>

<p>So “parents getting involved” really means a number of things, in this order:
(1) be a parent. That solves a host of ills now existing in the public school classrooms & is the single most important thing to do with regard to education.<br>
(2) Supervise & support your child’s education, including appropriately supplementing & extending it. (I’ll wager that 100% of CC parents do, or they wouldn’t be on this board.)
(3) Become informed about your school & about the system within your region: how it’s governed, who makes decisions. Be a voice for changing that system when you find it necessary. Learn who is making decisions about curriculum to adopt & discard.
(4) Become informed about your legislatures. Know what kinds of decisions they are making, what bills are being passed relative to education. Speak out and/or organize in those arenas, too. </p>

<p>What “getting involved” does not mean is to criticize from the sidelines without information, & to criticize the wrong people. If you were in my classroom yesterday, you would not be mad at teachers. However, you would be furious at those parents & furious at a system which allowed those students to derail the learning of the children whose parents paid for them to learn.</p>

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<p>Excellent post, Ephiphany. Thanks.</p>

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<p>However, you would be furious at those parents & furious at a system which allowed those students to derail the learning of the children whose parents paid for them to learn.</p>

<p>Unless you teach at a private school- we all pay for those children to learn.
I have done all those things that you mention for parents to be involved.
However- when I am in school district meetings regarding closures of the school my daughter previously attended, I am surprised not to see the principal or teachers ( ok I am not surprised but disappointed)</p>

<p>When the district doesn't see involvement- especially from those whose jobs are at stake- I would imagine they assume disinterest.
Since over half of the teachers at the school have more than 20 years experience, perhaps they know they can either have their pick of buildings in the district or just retire.
( average experience in district is 12 years in teaching- many teachers are on their 2nd career- )</p>

<p>I have heard teachers tell me " I have taught the same way for 18 years"
Unfortunately with this teacher- I believe it- she has probably recycled the same two years of understanding her entire career.</p>

<p>I have seen principals so desperate to work around union rules for releasing poor teachers with seniority, that they assign those teachers to classrooms that they know are beyond their capabilities.
The teacher eventually quit after a few months, but the kids in her class suffered, not only the first two months of school, where she was totally inappropriate, but during the period that it took for the district to list the position and find a replacement.
( Teachers told me this was going to happen the spring before it occured & were shocked but felt they couldn't say anything)</p>

<p>The principal who assigned the teacher however, had already been assigned to another building ( so she knew she was not going to have to deal with the repercussions- however- considering the school she opted to be assigned to- she was going from the frying pan to the fire)</p>

<p>It isn't that there aren't good teachers out there- one of my daughters friends who graduated a few years ago with an ed degree, can't even get hired as a sub-( and OMG the people they have as subs really bizarre- as someone who for years was in the building every day- I have met many-)
but there are so many who should have retired a long time ago that new teachers have difficulty getting a foothold because as soon as they find a job- they are bumped for the next year and not told till Sept if they have a job or not. Most can't live that way- they need to know when they are going to be employed and where.</p>

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<p>What I see happening in our neck of the woods. New teachers train in NYC. The good ones apply for jobs in the suburbs. We have no problem finding good teachers to hire. A few bad apples never the less end up in our school. The solution in one case was to let every kid whose parent complained transfer out of the class. The class ended up being half its original size. Another teacher ended up in charge of science classes and some tutoring. He impacted more kids that way, but never more than an hour a day. They also put him in half time doing union work somehow. </p>

<p>We've been pretty lucky most of my kids teachers have been good, a few have been excellent. Having taught a one hour afterschool class once a week I have great appreciate for their hard work and deserve every penny they get.</p>

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<p>Im not arguing there arent good teachers out there
But after my oldest attending private K-12 with some really fabulous teachers-
and now my younger daughter attending a school with teachers who actually respond when I call or email them- the gaps in communication at her previous school are even more glaring and frustrating.</p>

<p>She is doing so well now- with mostly involved teachers- that I can't help but wonder- would she have had to have been in special education and experienced the resulting loss of "self esteem" from being singled out for "resource", if her classroom teachers had been responsive and consistent?
It takes a long time to rebuild a childs self concept - after they have been struggling with school for many years. They don't see it as the fault of the curriculum or the system, they see it as their fault.
Its a district wide problem-many parents are hiring tutors- nationwide even, to suppleplant their childs classroom instruction.
Districts however- are ignoring that Kumon is who is teaching the kids their math facts
<a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4676496%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4676496&lt;/a>
My daughters previous school- didn't have tutoring on a regular basis & while we did pay for it for a while- even Kumon which is fairly inexpensive, take a bite out of your budget.</p>

<p>Her current school, virtually all of her classroom teachers- ( with the exception of Spanish- for whom she has a sub), are available at least one day a week after school & usually much more.</p>

<p>Outside of my older daughters private school teachers( she had one teacher- that was so committed, that when she was receiving chemo/radiation for breast cancer- she only took one day off a week & usually she was in for part of that day- and yes I think that is a little extreme),
they are the most dedicated bunch of teachers I have ever seen.</p>

<p>This is one of the schools new clubs</p>

<p>*Garfield's latest club, the Quiet Club, is off to a roaring start. This past Wednesday we had four people. I, Mr. Gish, was there first, eating my lunch (as quietly as I could) and waiting. Soon after, two girls came in, but who weren't quite sure what quiet meant. They tried to keep up a conversation at the whispering level until I let them know that whispering meant they weren't truly being quiet. They caught on quickly though, and true silence was all that was heard from that point. Finally, the co-founder of the club and master quieter, Adrian Randall, came in, nodded gently and sat down. We four, from that moment on, proceeded to get really, really quiet for about seventeen minutes. To consciously sever oneself from noise was wonderful. I rejoined the world relaxed and moving in a different, slower gear. I encourage more people to come and join us and be quiet.</p>

<p>Go softly,
Mr.Gish*</p>

<p>Creative eh?</p>

<p>:)</p>

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<p>You know after reading so many examples of bad teacher experiences from so many of you, I just have to figure my kids went to the best public school district in the country. Move to my neck of the woods. </p>

<p>SS, why on earth would you choose to live in a community with schools as bad you cite? Doesn't just play havoc with your home values? Isn't crime rampant with all these uneducated out on the streets? What are your elected officals doing about it? I actually feel for you if it is as bad as you say it is. From this point on I will always wonder if a kid from NJ can be expected to function in a normal setting. It sounds just terrible.</p>

<p>I know emerald city's situation and it's more of a bad school board and some very bad accounting practices by an administrator who escaped to Hiawaii and retired before she was found out. The current super is resigning over school closures after bringing the district back from a 32 million dollar hole to a 20 million surplus. However the horizon holds finanical instability again so the cuts and closures were proposed. It's been a cat fight ever since. I know why those teachers haven't shown up at these public meetings. In my district when our board was bad poeple, they took pictures and then looked for any minor thing to suspend or basically harrass teachers with. Seattle's school board is really disfunctional, why would a teacher put his/her job on the line to let them know that? Small power is often better than big power as you rarely face challenges for your actions. </p>

<p>I agree with ephif that many are laying the blame at teachers feet for things the teacher must deal with. It's going after the wrong person.</p>

<p>Let me simply ephif's point about how some excellent teachers could be percieved differently because of factors beyond their control. I cannot write nearly as well, but maybe my point will be simpler to understand. </p>

<p>Let's say you have the fastest runner in the world. He can run an 8 second 100 meters, nobody's close. Then you start having lead weights put on his body pound after pound till he's having trouble even finishing the race. So now he's a bum, you could do a better job than him. He's so slow he should quit, he's an embarassment to racing. Meanwhile, you never bother to look who is adding the lead weights to his body. Often, the person adding the weight is someone you put in power. Funny that way isn't it?</p>

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<p>the school board- in our district can't do S%$- they don't have control over anyones job but the superintendents( they do like to rattle their cages though)</p>

<p>Some of the schools do have teachers who come regularly- in particular several district math teachers have come often, to testify about the inefficency of the math programs and their own and their parents frustration about the adoption of "new" programs which they predict are not going to be an improvement.</p>

<p>( and actually I don't think Seattle can blame the loss of $35 million on one administrator- part was their practices- which was system wide- even the external auditor couldn't find where some of the money went-the superintendent of the district at the time of the deficit- had previously been the Chief Financial Officer- so was his excuse he wasn't really good with numbers?
The current superintendent was the COO at the time- who I credit for a few of things- but with an ineffective board- and with a contentious community- not to mention school board-he really wasn't cut out for anything more than an interim position)</p>

<p>At my daughters present school- even the security officer has come in to testify about conditions at the school- he actually was a frequent attendee until he was transferred to another school-</p>

<p>I don't expect the teachers to come to all or even most of the meetings- but as a parent- I do appreciate when teachers are visible re community issues that are important to them.</p>

<p>It isn't that I think testifying to the school board makes any difference- but to show solidarity with the community does make a difference.
We have a lot of frequent attendees who are former district teachers & principals, and certain schools have heavier representation, but I would also like to see some new faces once in a while.
Unfortunately the behavior of the recent meetings has probably scared many away-I think it is time for a different structure.
( the district also doesn't have a surplus- it is projected that unless new sources of revenue combined with cuts in expenditures are not found the deficit by 2010 will be $50 million- they have produced balanced budgets for the past couple years- but no surplus)
<a href="http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/272032_school30.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/272032_school30.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>"Some of the schools do have teachers who come regularly- in particular several district math teachers have come often, to testify about the inefficency of the math programs and their own and their parents frustration about the adoption of "new" programs which they predict are not going to be an improvement."</p>

<p>Our district got stuck with the WASL (non WA residents.. our NCLB test) math program dropping a previously successful math program. Our bad board made this decision without even asking our math teachers. Needless to say the "new" has many holes. The biggest being while it gets you to pass the WASL, it fails miserably at college level math. NCLB is not about getting kids into college, lets not fool ourselves, it about getting them out the door. </p>

<p>"( and actually I don't think Seattle can blame the loss of $35 million on one administrator- part was their practices- which was system wide- even the external auditor couldn't find where some of the money went-the superintendent of the district at the time of the deficit- had previously been the Chief Financial Officer- so was his excuse he wasn't really good with numbers?"</p>

<p>It wasn't Olykefski (really bad spelling) I'm referring to, It was the gal who was in charge for the district that hid the deficeit from him. This caused what would have or could have been a much smaller correction to become the 35 million elephant in the room. She split to Hiawaii before it came out.</p>

<p>"The current superintendent was the COO at the time- who I credit for a few of things- but with an ineffective board- and with a contentious community- not to mention school board-he really wasn't cut out for anything more than a interim position)"</p>

<p>Yes, I agree. Voting in that school board has been the biggest mistake for Seattle schools. </p>

<p>"At my daughters present school- even the security officer has come in to testify about conditions at the school- he actually was a frequent attendee until he was transferred to another school-"</p>

<p>Garfield right? I still find it amazing Garfield is considered a cream of the crop school. Not that it is bad, but back in my day to play against them put yourself in danger. It was a bad community surrounding that school back then. You didn't say if the security guy wanted to transfer? </p>

<p>"I don't expect the teachers to come to all or even most of the meetings- but as a parent- I do appreciate when teachers are visible re community issues that are important to them."</p>

<p>Just remember it's a fine line for alot of them. Sometimes they're just beat from their day and other times they don't want to have to move their classroom cause they've ****ed somebody off. Happens more than you think. </p>

<p>"It isn't that I think testifying to the school board makes any difference- but to show solidarity with the community does make a difference."</p>

<p>But you've got to consider how often do you stand up in a public forum and tell your boss "you're doing it wrong"? Even with a union, that's alot of risk to take on.
"We have a lot of frequent attendees who are former district teachers & principals, and certain schools have heavier representation, but I would also like to see some new faces once in a while."</p>

<p>We have the formers come to ours as well. Know why? Free at last, free at last, free at last... they can now and often do say what they feel or have felt their entire career without that fear that the board can do anything but listen. </p>

<p>As I said the day for unions will pass, when administrators can be counted on to be honest unbaised people.. it ain't gonna happen..:)</p>

<p>"Unfortunately the behavior of the recent meetings has probably scared many away-I think it is time for a different structure."</p>

<p>During our strike our former SB, refused to meet publically to avoid parents. </p>

<p>"( the district also doesn't have a surplus- it is projected that unless new sources of revenue combined with cuts in expenditures are not found the deficit by 2010 will be $50 million- they have produced balanced budgets for the past couple years- but no surplus)"</p>

<p>agreed, that is why the whole school closures thing is on the block. </p>

<p>Good luck Emerald. Up here we removed 100% of the board and found a qualified super who bit by bit is moving us in the right direction. The biggest problem that was solved? communication between administration and educators. We now have a back and forth stream of communication rather than edicts from the royal family. And even better, the super doesn't have the need to hire a bodyguard as our past mistake did. We did have some interesting times a few years ago.</p>

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<p>EK,
I'm not going to go through each of your items point by point, as I think it's far too much local detail to be relevant to most people. I'll just say that in our region, teachers do show up for imp. meetings such as school closures; those who don't have valid personal & professional reasons, some of which Opie has discussed.
And the teachers that do show up may have little or no influence on the closures. In fact, at some meetings, quite frankly the decision has already been made, for all intents & purposes. The Board may be allowing the community to vent, but closure has been virtually determined.</p>

<p>Also, Board meetings do not address the structure of schooling which is actually at the heart of many of the complaints on this thread -- whether or not the complainers realize it. Rather, being on the Board oneself, being on related boards & organizations, being in direct contact with legislators (for example, on the education committee), being in contact with Board members not during public meeting opportunities -- these afford more options for policy change-making at least in the way of possibly <em>influencing</em>, lobbying, for policy, procedure, curriculum, structural changes.</p>

<p>It's obviously not up to individual parents to move large mountains, or to be blamed if significant changes are not adopted & implemented. I'm just saying that the system is much more responsible for some of the deficits in teaching that are being blamed on individual classroom teachers. I'm saying that your concerns should be mainly addressed there, unless particular cases of unprofessionalism or incompetence are at issue with your children's teachers. In that case, they should be directed to the principal, of course, & if the principal does not act, to higher-ups -- always.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
SS, why on earth would you choose to live in a community with schools as bad you cite? Doesn't just play havoc with your home values? Isn't crime rampant with all these uneducated out on the streets? What are your elected officals doing about it? I actually feel for you if it is as bad as you say it is. From this point on I will always wonder if a kid from NJ can be expected to function in a normal setting. It sounds just terrible.

[/quote]
Individual teachers are incompetent. The sysetem is no different than any other in the country because unions protect the incompetent. My property values are soaring, thank you. And NJ kids have the highest cutoff in NMSF & every top college in the country is quite top heavy with Jersey kids. NJ is also the most highly educated state, so you need not worry about us. What's your beef with NJ anyway?</p>

<p>My d is in an all-girl Catholic high school that costs us a bundle on top of our huge property tax bill. All her teachers are epiphany caliber. They have one year contracts & no union. They don't fear dismissal because they are excellent and produce wonderful results.</p>

<p>Epiphany gives great insight into the teacher burnout issue. Having to carry the load for incompetent colleagues surely contributes to the problem.</p>

<p>
[quote]
But you've got to consider how often do you stand up in a public forum and tell your boss "you're doing it wrong"?

[/quote]
I'll ask another question: How do you complain about an incompetent teacher without incurring the backlash that might result? I'm talking about a little child bearing the brunt of an angry or defensive teacher? I'll stand up to anyone, but it's very tricky to send your defenseless, naive child in to a class and spend six hours with an adult you have called out on something. Not an equal power footing, for sure.</p>

<p>Your position as the husband of an educator has made you unwilling to hear the other side. Did it ever occur to you that the teachers's kids ALWAYS are assigned to the good teachers? Everyone knows who they are. That can account for you satisfaction with your own kids' teachers, don't you think?</p>

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<p>Hey, SS, you just made my day with that last post.:)</p>

<p>Seriously, though, I know whereof you speak with regard to the courage to confront a school & risk punitive consequences. Happened to us, too, & more than once. (Student punished after legitimate complaint to principal about egregious unprofessionalism. That's to confirm that I have very high standards & expect a certain level of decorum & performance from every teacher, naturally including myself.:)) As with your family, these complaints were at a similar private. Privates have boards, too -- & sometimes supers if they're part of a diocese, etc. If there's retaliation, we have to go the The Higher Authority (hehe). Parents should not be intimidated. </p>

<p>At said school just referred to, a group of parents once got together & succeeded in getting some incompetents fired. It made a difference in keeping people from continuing to be intimidated, & keeping teachers more on their toes in terms of performance. Some other parents hated those complaining parents; they were the ones who resent people who make waves. Tough.</p>

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<p>StickerShock, You seem to be quite anti-union and tenure. I would like your opinion on two relate observations of mine. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>College professors also work with a tenure system. Yet, they are by and large considered competent. Why do you think that is the case? </p></li>
<li><p>If MD's were paid at a salary scale as K12 teachers, do you think we could attract good medical students into the profession? Conversely, if we double the salary of K12 teachers and make training as rigorous as medical school and passing a "teacher board exam" as tough as the medical board, do you think we will get teachers as reliable as the MD's that we trust our lives to?</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>padad, I know college professors who have refused to join the union. I do not believe in tenure for any job. I recognize the need for unions was great for blue collar & dangerous occupations in the past. It is pretty obvious that unions have morphed into power-hungry organizations that add unnecessary costs and delays to a variety of industries. Yet many unions are still doing good work for blue-collar & skilled tradesmen. I do not believe a professional should ever be a union member. There are many incompetent professors out there. Who "by and large" considers them competent?</p>

<p>There is no comparison between the level of education & training currently needed to enter the medical profession & teaching. I am quite sure the caliber of med students would suffer if the salary dropped to that of an entry level teacher. It would not be in line with the years of education & training required. Guess what? That's already happening. Docs aren't making the big bucks that they used to, and top students are being drawn to better paying professions as we speak. And I would answer yes to your question about the reliability of teachers rising if training, education, and boards were as rigorous as what med students must endure.</p>

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<p>"Your position as the husband of an educator has made you unwilling to hear the other side. Did it ever occur to you that the teachers's kids ALWAYS are assigned to the good teachers? Everyone knows who they are. That acan account for you satisfaction with your own kids' teachers, don;t you think?"</p>

<p>You still have no idea of what you're talking about, but keep going. </p>

<p>Your kids are in private school so where does your expertise come on publics? Or is it just anger at the lack of a tax break for private tuition? </p>

<p>Again I must live in the best school district in the country.. woo ho look at us! </p>

<p>To even irritate you more about paying a bundle for private schools, my two public school children picked up close to 300k for college. So I have 300,000 reasons to thank a teacher. One will be a doctor and the other a vet, what a shame they were shortchanged. </p>

<p>"How do you complain about an incompetent teacher without incurring the backlash that might result? I'm talking about a little child bearing the brunt of an angry or defensive teacher? I'll stand up to anyone, but it's very tricky to send your defenseless, naive child in to a class and spend six hours with an adult you have called out on something. "</p>

<p>First off, I'd start with making sure you have a real and valid reason for the call out. Then get your facts together and ask for a meeting about your concerns. Then you go and you listen... that right you LISTEN to the educator first. </p>

<p>Then you talk about the differences and where there could be a meeting of the minds. Maybe your facts are correct, Mayby you're the one's whose wrong in the situation? Have you ever given that one second of thought that you could be wrong? </p>

<p>Keep that aspect in mind. It's not IRAQ and you're certain of WMD's, the educator is not your or your child's ememy (unless of course that's what you've decided before going in) Maybe you'll find out junior isn't telling you everything quite the way it's happening. Maybe he is. POV is a individual thing. </p>

<p>Do you honestly think I've never had to sit down with teacher over a problem real or imagined from their or my end? </p>

<p>My Son's nickname was the fighting Valdictorian. He sat out several weeks here and there over the years for his choices and actions. </p>

<p>I also served as a league offical for a HS sport. Try carding a coach who then gets your D for his english class. To his credit (he knew I didn't like him all that much because I'd expressed myself face to face) he was extremely professional and inspiring to my D. In fact his efforts as her teacher showed me I was wrong about him. I guess he showed me up right? </p>

<p>You have no idea cause you're mama bear. Try being a mama bear in a private school and see what happens:) </p>

<p>Treating a professional like a professional gets professional results 99.9% of the time. Most professionals will want to work with you (with you!) to achieve the best result for your child. If you think they work for you, why bother going in? You're the problem. And sometimes you have to understand that the best result for your child might just be a teacher who makes your child unhappy for awhile. </p>

<p>My "gifted" S cried often about his teacher in 6th grade, it seemed nothing was good enough for her, she was mean, crotchity and ever so strict. On open house she sat the parents down and laid down the law. If we didn't like it too bad, that how it is going to be. </p>

<p>Well, he learned to do it her way and her way was the right way, do the best everytime. He thanked her at graduation as she did more to make him a NMF by making him miserable for awhile than by babying him and not pushing for improvement. She loved my kid as much as I did, we're thankful somebody cared enough to demand more from our child inspite of his high scores. When he becomes a doctor he will be able to look back at this teacher for instilling the drive to do it right and absolute best each time out. </p>

<p>In my own life and my children's I have found no one cares for me and mine than the teachers we've had 99.9% of the time. I am truly sorry it doesn't work that way for you, educators have brought so much to my kids. It's a shame some of their best teachers were also officers in their union. How my kids suffered from this. :) </p>

<p>I'm sorry I just can't believe your position on teachers, maybe I do live in the best school district in the united states, but I kinda doubt it. </p>

<p>I think there might be an issue under an issue for you on this subject. </p>

<p>If this approach doesn't work, then you move one step up to bring resolution.</p>