<p>Here's a link to an article about Education Conservancy, a new consulting service started by a former GC:</p>
<p>Thacker's ideas sound good to me. In our generation, most people did not apply to 8 schools. If people would apply to no more than 4-6, acceptance rates would go up and it wouldn't look so hard to get into these schools. Then people would relax.</p>
<p>I really like this sentence: Keep in mind that you are being judged according to criteria that you would never use to judge another person and which will never again be applied to you once you leave college.</p>
<p>I agree wholeheartedly, dstark. See my post under "This Too Shall Pass" in which I appear to be the only one commenting on the OP's applying to 17 schools. For what?</p>
<p>In addition, my daughter is one of a number of her friends over the past few years who have elected to NOT take the SATs or SAT IIs, and certainly not multiple times. It's a total waste of time. They have each taken the ACT once - a far more reasonable test - and that's it. I wish more kids would do the same - just opt out of the madness. Just think - no more wasted time with prep courses, worry, taking repeated sample tests, obsessing over a fill-in bubble test, etc. Note to flamers: these girls PSATs show they would have scored around 1400-1500, so it's not sour grapes. The ones who did this in the past three years are all in top ten LACS or Ivies or other top 15 universities.</p>
<p>Two of the girls wrote essays on the subject, which were commented upon by the adcoms as the best thing they'd ever read in admissions essays!</p>
<p>nedad, I just read your post. Obviously, I agree with you. I don't want to trash the OP on that thread (He obviously has issues), but some of the schools he is applying to are dissimilar.
Some people use the college admission process to validate themselves. Some people see college acceptances like winning trophies. "I have to find out how many schools like me". "I have to win as many as I can".</p>
<p>It's too bad. It increases the frenzy and adds stress to everyone else.</p>
<p>dstark ~ I agree with your post on 4-6 schools. That's still twice what I and my contemporaries did in the 1970's! I always wonder about those kids applying to 20 schools...I don't get the frenzy or the fear factor.</p>
<p>I applied to four schools. I think that 6 is completely reasonable, but anything above that starts to look odd. (This is not applicable for graduate programmes or things like Musical Theatre!) There is no way that these kids can do a good job on that many applications while keeping high academic standards. </p>
<p>Yay! Great article, Marite.</p>
<p>There is a not so subtle assumption in this thread AND in the article: That college (or HS) is about education, period. While I agree with dstark and nedad here, as well as the author of the link, I think we need to recognize that, for some people, a "designer" college is just as important as the designer clothes they wear, the Lexus or Beamer SUV they drive to HS or work, or other symbols of "success". I don't inhabit such circles, and don't agree with the values, but I do recognize that more people probably disagree with my approach, at least where I live. ( Your daughter is at U Chicago, when Harvard is just a few miles away...)</p>
<p>At any rate, there is a whole parallel universe out there where such stuff matters a lot. I'm just glad I'm not part of it...</p>
<p>our son took essentially the same approach in applying to colleges as outlined in the article. Always the stickler for detail, he figured that he had at least a remote shot at all but a few colleges. He looked at the USNews ranking but used it only as a general screening tool. He took the SAT once in January of junior year and a second time in the fall of senior year. And though he took not prep course, his score went up about 50 points to 1430. </p>
<p>His HS course load was reasonably tough but not torturous and represented his interests. Therefore he took 5 maths, 6 sciences counting two years of computer science, only 2 years of foriegn language, and 7 AP's. All his EC's were based on his interests. Therefore he joined no clubs but participated in things like ultimate frisbee team, fencing, ski club and a lot of music groups. Though he qualified for CTY program courses, he chose instead to work during his summers in HS.</p>
<p>He applied to 6 colleges representing a broad range of choices. With the exception of Rutgers which was a financial safety, he felt that he would have been happy attending any of the other 5. None of the colleges he applied to would have been considered reaches, so there was no anxiety about that.</p>
<p>He was accepted to the six colleges he applied to and has loved his experiences at Oberlin so far. </p>
<p>Both he and us found the college application process quite easy, enjoyable and stress free.</p>
<p>I guess I'll take the opposite view for sake of clarity, in my own mind, of course. I really don't see anything wrong with a non-hooked kid applying to a dozen schools, as long as they are: 1) similar; 2) on common app. IMO, the key is to focus on two safeties and two matches first. Then, why not play the lottery game, and aim for five uber-reaches. For example, some of the NE LACs are similar (Williams, Amherst, Colgate), and use c-app. Further, in our state, we have the Calif "common app", one app for all UC's. Since getting into Berkeley and UCLA depends on "compassionate" review even for kids with top scores and resident status, why not apply to the next few on the list, such as SD for science types, or SB and Davis for other majors. Of course, Irvine becomes a public safety, just in case a family's economics change (layoff, death in family?), and that private school is now out of reach. Just my $0.02.</p>
<p>I kind of agree, blue. Sure 20 colleges is ridiculous (unless you are aiming for a specialized program of some sort), but I don't see a need to draw the line strictly at 4-6. I applied ED to a school and was accepted, but if I hadn't been accepted, I planned on applying to 7 more schools. I needed to be able to compare scholarship offers from a range of schools, and I wanted to keep my options open. But if a kid has good reasons for appying to 8 or 10 schools, I don't think someone should say no because some Thacker guy says to limit yourself to 4-6.</p>
<p>Likewise, if you really think that you can do better on the SAT by taking it a third time, and you actually have a reason to think that (you took some practice tests, and worked on your weaknesses, etc.), then why not take it a third time? I don't think there is any need for these strict numerical limits.</p>
<p>Still, I agree with Thacker's overall tone. College admissions is too crazy now, and focused on all together the wrong things. But using arbitrary limits on tests and applications isn't really going to solve the problem, I don't think.</p>
<p>I agree with a lot of the comments, although it can vary according to situation. My younger son took the PSAT twice, the SAT once. (He said if he got over 1400, he would not take it again, and he got 1410, so that was that.) He took three SAT II's only because some schools required them--he didn't do very well, but refused to take them again.</p>
<p>However, applying to colleges is a different story. I applied to just two colleges many years ago. My older son applied to four. My younger son has applied to about 9 or 10; I have lost count, I am afraid. However, he is applying to music schools, and music schools can be very selective. Two or three he has almost no chance to get into. Several more are quite chancy, and none of them are sure things. His safeties are schools where he will be easily admitted to the college itself, but may not make it into the music school. Then he would have to work hard and try to work his way into a music major.</p>
<p>So, while I definitely agree that applying to college should not be so all-consuming an affair, it has become such for my son, just because of his career interest. And believe me, with auditions, tapes to make, and many colleges that do NOT accept the common application, it has not been fun and easy! (or cheap!)</p>
<p>My son was fortunate to do well on the SAT I the first time he took the test, so he didn't take it again. Same for the SAT II's. I think he was lucky that the standardized test part of the college application process was not overly time-consuming. Not every kid is so fortunate, and I'm reluctant to criticize kids who take the test two or three times trying to increase their scores. </p>
<p>He applied to 12 schools. Most of the schools were common application, so other than a couple of supplemental essays, there really was very little additional work for each application. After he got into his ED school he withdrew all the other applications. The reason for so many apps? He only applied to one reach school, and 2 safeties - the other 9 schools on his list were all "match" schools - which we viewed as 50-50 propositions even though his stats were in the range at each school. He was looking to maximize his chances at THIS type of school. The schools were all very similar and he would have been very happy to have attended any of them.</p>
<p>I personally think applying to more than 10 schools is overkill. Yes, I know admissions is highly competitive these days...but let's face it, part of the reason for that competitiveness is that so many kids are using the common application to apply to schools they have no intention of attending if they get into one of their five or six "first choices." That drives up application numbers throughout the system. </p>
<p>Ten applications (or less) to WELL-CHOSEN schools is more than enough to guarantee anyone a place somewhere. There are very rare exceptions for kids like SusanTm's son who are applying to specific programs with limited slots nationally. Otherwise, too many kids (and parents) seem to have an "admissions conquest" mentality these days.</p>
<p>I'm also amending my reasons to apply to more than 4-6 schools to include: if you need scholarship money! It could be nice to compare offers come the spring.</p>
<p>That all said, you're only ever going to enroll at one school in the fall.</p>
<p>Some kids are applying to a dozen or more schools looking for affirmation. Others because they are truely worried about getting in to any place but the in state fallback. If you are a BWRK (basic white regular kid) with no hook and no bottomless checkbook which means you have to apply regular admission then even 1400+ scores and APs up the whazzo won't get you into a lot of those top 30 national universities and top 25 LACs. On paper your qualifications may be well up in the top half of the entering class but that hardly tells the story of what is going on in college admissions these days.</p>
<p>The good news though is there are a whole pile of good schools out there with a lot to offer where you are apt to come away with a better education than at the name brand school. The Honda will get you to work at least as well as the Jaguar and more reliably and for less money too. Won't turn many heads though.</p>
<p>My son's college counselor (at a rigorous private school) did not feel that 12 schools was overkill given the kinds of school he was applying to. The 9 matches were mostly selective LAC's - while he was in the range for every one of them, there are no guarantees and he had no special hook other than his good stats. These schools all fill 40%+ of their classes ED, leaving a small # of slots for RD applicants. Among the 9 - which school should he have deleted from his list?! Hamilton or Colby? Maybe that's the one which was most likely to take him. Ultimately this is irrelevant since he got in ED to his first choice, but if he had to do this all over again, I'd support the same approach. He wasn't looking for affirmation - he just wanted to get into a good school, and the RD slots are really competitive at these schools.</p>
<p>There are risks in applying to a dozen of more schools for whatever reason. All students doing this assume those risks. However, if you want/need financial or merit aid , are working with a zig-zaggy resume, looking at ultra competitive programs, applying to many colleges is a route to consider. Our performing arts chair who has a Yale MFA and has been working with kids who are applying to audition centered programs, advocates applying early and often with several backups. I know several kids who ended up hitting the jackpot on the 14th or 15th school on their list. My neighbors daughter applied to 25 colleges, and was accepted to a handful and I have no idea what the rhyme or reason for the acceptances at those particular schools were. She applied to all the ivies, the little ivies, and other ultra selective schools. She ended up getting into Cornell,Wesleyan , and Colby out of that group and then some in the next level in the selectivity. Ironically when she checked out her choices, she ended up at Colgate, which would not have made her list had she cut it to half or 2/3 the number of schools. Wesleyan was a top choice that she bagged after the acceptance visit. </p>
<p>S applied to 20 schools, and I can tell you keeping track of them was difficult even with my help. I am getting things mixed up from one school to the other as well, and I have to double check the chart before I say anything as I often cannnot remember. In his case, the audition schools did not require much attention on the app and demonstrated interest front, but the audition really makes up for that as you have to go to the audition on a stipulated date.</p>
<p>R-Dad:</p>
<p>Oh, I've often reminicsed with our GC that we could go back to the dark ages when life was much simpler! One of the biggest differences between then and now is demographics, both numbers and interest in college: 1) the boomlet is huge; 2) I'd guess only 10% of my HS class went to a 4-year university, and 30-40% of the class went to any type of college, including junior college. Moreover, back in the '70s, Berkeley and UCLA were safeties, in that they accepted nearly 100% of local residents who met the MINIMUM admission criteria, i.e., 2.8-3.0, depending on test score, (or whatever it was back then). At USC, you could walk up to campus on the first day of class in September and apply and register on the spot! Now an unhooked kid, with a uw 4.0 and 1400 SAT only has a 50-60% chance of acceptance.</p>
<p>Couple of interesting factoids. 1,419,007 kids took the SATs in 2004. Only 156,000 had a combined score north of 1300. The eight Ivy's had 135,000 applicants and accepted 22,000 and enrolled 13,500. Either almost the entire cohort scoring 1300+ must have applied to the Ivy's or there is one hell of a lot duplication because I doubt many kids with scores below 1300 waste their time applying.</p>
<p>If you throw in Duke, MIT, Stanford, Johns Hopkons, Cal Tech, Chicago and Northwestern the total number of applicants to just those 15 universities was 217,000. If there were no multiple applications that would represent every kid in America scoring north of 1250 combined.</p>
<p>Needless to say I left a lot of very selective schools off of that list including all the LACs and the Service Academies and all state schools. If you start throwing Berkley and Michigan and UVa into the mix with their huge applicant pool and entering classes and high test scores it becomes clear that the average number of schools top scorers are applying to must be prodigious.</p>
<p>I'm sorry, I have to defend myself here.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I agree wholeheartedly, dstark. See my post under "This Too Shall Pass" in which I appear to be the only one commenting on the OP's applying to 17 schools. For what?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>For the record, I have drastically reduced the number of schools I am applying to. I am not applying to 17 schools. That post was made during a period where I was incredibly stressed and pressured to do things a certain way.</p>
<p>
[quote]
nedad, I just read your post. Obviously, I agree with you. I don't want to trash the OP on that thread (He obviously has issues), but some of the schools he is applying to are dissimilar.
Some people use the college admission process to validate themselves. Some people see college acceptances like winning trophies. "I have to find out how many schools like me". "I have to win as many as I can".
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I have issues? Sure, I do. But you make it sound like it's a bad thing. Which, some are, but seriously, who doesn't have problems in life? Does it look like I'm obsessing over Georgetown and that letdown was coming to me? Sure, it does, but I can assure you I'm not obsessing over Georgetown. In fact, I've been trying to get away from CC and get back in gear to the things I used to do. The whole issues statement.. I find that offensive (last I checked, I am entitled to my own opinion, don't think my status as a student changes things). You don't want to trash me on that thread but you can do it in this one? I understand some of the schools are dissimiliar, but I've come to the realization that they are and slowly phased them out of my list.</p>
<p>No, I don't see college acceptances like winning trophies. I do, however, like to keep my options open. </p>
<p>I do not see college admissions as a race to see how many acceptance letters you can collect. I will admit, in the beginning, I was superficial in selecting where to apply, but in retrospect -- I don't regret a single application. Every application had its reason. </p>
<p>I come from an environment where college acceptances is seen like "winning trophies." Many Korean parents like to brag where their child(ren) got into -- I was fortunate enough to have parents that support me no matter where I go.</p>
<p>I also don't use this process to validate myself. I know my abilities -- and to an extent, I know exactly what I'm capable of. If I receive a rejection letter, so what? (well, if you only applied to one college/university, I could see the dilemma, but..) I took my Georgetown deferral much better than I originally thought I would. I'm not going to go screaming "Oh My God!" and faint just because I was rejected from XXX university or YYY College. Life goes on -- regardless of what happens in this process.</p>