Brainstorming about "fall back" jobs if med school is not in the cards - help!

Parents Forum
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Retired physician here. From long, long ago when we woman kept increasing in numbers. I was a chemistry major who decided on medical instead of grad school like my friends who became PhDs and went various routes. No way Chem E for me. Differences in sciences and engineering. Plenty of time for your D to figure things out.

Our son did honors math and then finished second major in comp sci. Zero interest in becoming a physician like his parents. Ended up working instead of any grad school. Seems intellectually satisfied with being a software engineer (developer at former job). Prefers that to research. I get the differences. Both are software versus hardware computer engineering.

For medical school any major is acceptable. Many choose sciences because they like them- and so many courses required for both. Any college will do. If medical school is a possibility choose an academic fit but watch the budget- flagship instate schools are great. Less than half with premed intentions (was 1 in 3 for my time and heard the same not too long ago) will go to medical school so having a plan B is needed. This means choosing a major one actively likes and can do well in. Once in college she will modify plans for a major and profession as she learns more about them and who she is. Way too soon to worry.

Your job now is to allow your D to have a good childhood while maxing out on rigorous HS courses that fit her. Her job will be to have good study habits- this will serve her well in learning now and in college. She also should join activities she enjoys- for fun, not a resume. I recall saying I would only take the minimum required two years of HS science, then went on to a Chemistry major. Your D will continue to evolve. I had medical school classmates who ran the gamut from wanting to be a doctor since childhood to one with a PhD in philosophy and graying hair (close to 30, gasp).

The short answer. Let her STEM (or other) interests determine her major. Her college experiences will lead her on the path she should take. Way too soon to know.

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I agree that it’s too soon to know, although in all fairness sometimes it’s not…depends on the kid. My daughter was a bio major with a double minor in chemistry and Spanish. She followed her interests with little regard for what would come next…insisted that all she wanted to do was learn. She occasionally discussed it, but each discussion resulted in a different career path …which only resulted in frustration for me.

I agree that your daughter’s interests will determine her major and where she takes it while in college ( internships, clubs, research, etc). There may be an obvious path…or maybe not. Eventually it will become clear. My D insists that you can major in anything…not sure if she’s right but it worked for her.

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I believe you are way overthinking / overplanning.

Any college that offers the coursework to support pre-med also will offer plenty of opportunities if your daughter changes direction. And that journey will be the one she takes while she’s in college – not the one you imagine while she’s still in high school. And the college will have plenty of resources and information for her to explore career opportunities tied to her major.

I also am from a family of lawyers, but I have a daughter-in-law who is a doctor. Her college major? Literature.

My point: you don’t need a STEM major for pre-med – and the value of the college education is much more than the career it prepares you for.

If you were a college sophomore posting because you had started in premed but no longer felt it was in the cards for you – then I think there would be a lot of people to help with suggestions and ideas.

But as the parent of a kid who has not yet started college, the question is premature and your college tours shouldn’t be focused on majors & careers in any case. Focus on broader things – the campus environment, overall resources, etc. That is, instead of asking what careers are good for a chem major – you might want to visit or ask about the college career center. Instead of asking what can she major in if she opts out of premed… find out how flexible the school is when students want to shift majors, or have double majors, etc.

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That is exactly what I was going to say: that you are overthinking a bit. As others have said, you can major in anything and go to med school (actually as a group, I have read that music majors have the highest admit rate, a fact that I could once cite but can’t, sorry). There are post-baccalaureate programs to cover prerequisites. here is one of many many examples https://www.goucher.edu/learn/graduate-programs/post-baccalaureate-premed-program/

I know that college has become more and more vocational in focus for many families, and for good reason. College costs a lot and many students have debt. But I do think it is still a gift to have 4 years to follow what genuinely interests you, without the pressures (yet) of earning a living, and it is still true that graduates from many majors do well in the job market and in professional schools like nursing, medicine, law and business. (Is your daughter at all interested in nursing?)

We know kids who majored in math and have done fine in the job market, more than fine. If that is what she loves, great. Then she can choose schools with the size, location, EC’s, affordability and “vibe” that she is drawn to, and check out the math program. Many schools ask you to choose a major at the end of sophomore year, though as you know some want major declaration before admission. But at many schools it is fine to enter “undecided” and explore for a bit.

Many students opt not to use AP credit, even when they got 5’s. Every school has its particular program and sequence and it can help to do the whole thing. This also reduces stress in the first year. But I recognize there are financial aspects to getting credit.

I am also the parent of a kid with type 1, and the financial worries are increased with that particular chronic illness. The out of pocket expenses are so high even with good insurance, and our kids need to have good insurance no matter what. I do wonder if the interest in diabetes technology might lead to an interest in working in that industry.

Whereever she goes and whatever she does, I hope she registers with the Office of Disabilities. They will give her a letter for professors stating that she has registered with them. Sometimes the letter mentions diagnosis and/or accommodations and sometimes they are negotiated between student and professor. I will tell you that deans and doctors will in the end be better resources than the O of D but you do have to register. Missed classes or being late to class due to a low or high can happen and be misunderstood. Due to the pump and CGM, my daughter also had her exams in a room by herself.

Have you applied for accommodations with the College Board? It takes at least 6 weeks to get permission to have the pump in the room and “extra breaks” to deal with diabetes if the need arises.

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@wiz75 @calmom @compmom - you are all absolutely right. I am sure I am overthinking it. I think I’ve been looking at too many doctor/med school message boards - it sounds overwhelming. I think what I’ve learned from you all is that you can major in anything in order to get into medical school. I need to make sure that SHE understands that. I have an inkling that she wants to major in bio or chem because “that’s what you major in for med school”. Don’t get me wrong - she likes both of them a lot. But without med school in the equation, I’m guessing she’d major in math. Now that I know it’s a marketable major, I’m going to make sure she understands that majoring in Math would be OK, even with medical school in the equation.

When I applied to law school back in the day, you took the LSAT, and applied to schools. You didn’t have to shadow anyone, do a million volunteer and paid hours in a law firm or government agency, or anything like that. I picked about 5 schools in three states in which I would be happy to live (since the bar is a state exam) and felt my grades and LSAT were a good fit, and went to the one that gave me the biggest scholarship since I had to pay for the whole thing by myself. That was that (though I met my husband at school, which was pretty great).

The med school application process seems like a nightmare frankly.

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Premed is intimidating and intense. It is not uncommon to take one or more gap years to work ( this can help solidify the decision to apply) finish shadowing and volunteering, etc.

Look for schools with a wide range of majors and opportunities, and let your daughter take the lead. Her major, classes, relationships she builds, activities etc will all help shape what comes next.

My daughter majored/minored in bio and chem because that’s what she loved ( still does). Thoughts about med school really didn’t materialize until senior year.

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The big things to be sure she knows include that she can major in whatever she wants and she can go to pretty much any college she likes, but she MUST get a high GPA so will need to have good study habits set from the beginning - many freshmen do not. At the same time she needs to be active. She should be joining a club or two she likes (doesn’t really matter what) and talking with the pre-med folks at her school plus some who have BTDT to get an idea about shadowing, volunteering, etc.

It IS a major deal and every pre-med needs a Plan B, yet thousands make it in each year so it can be done. It’s not impossible. You can even enjoy the journey along the way rather than being stressed about it. My lad has loved practically every step. He chose things to do that he enjoyed, not once doing things “just because they would look good on his app.” I think that’s why he still enjoys it rather than being stressed about everything.

So that last bit of advice to be sure she knows? Enjoy the journey. Get on the path choosing trails that she likes.

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However, professional school costs extra money that many students do not have (or would have to take large amounts of debt to access). It is a typically a luxury for those with wealthy generous parents to do undergraduate without needing to consider the pressure of earning a living at graduation.

While it seems to be conventional wisdom on these forums always to repeat one’s AP credit, that seems like a waste of time and tuition if the student knows the material well (which can be checked by reviewing the syllabi and exams of the college courses that are allowed to be skipped). A student may take around 32 courses in college; why waste some of them redoing what s/he learned in high school instead of learning something new, whether it be an additional advanced course in the major, or free elective courses in another subject of interest that would not otherwise fit into the schedule?

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Well, unfortunately, it only gets worse from there. I think the residency match procedure, especially for more competitive specialties, makes the initial app process look like a piece of cake.

But again — not something your daughter needs to worry about now – and not something for you to worry about at all, except for the money piece (if you are now or hope in the future to be able to assist with that). Your kid will either end up as a doctor or she won’t — but the only thing that matters will be if she is happy wherever she does end up. Even if it is something entirely different and totally unexpected.

And I’d just add that kids who go off to college and major in art history or philosophy or creative writing also graduate and get jobs, sometimes in something related to their major, sometimes not. So chill… your daughter will be fine. Her future might be a straight line or it might be a meandering path — both can turn out well.

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It is the common wisdom on CC that applying to med school is a nightmare, but I know two young women and a young man heading off to med school now and I don’t think that any of them are “off the charts” brilliant, and their experiences were certainly not a nightmare. Paying for it- maybe. But not what comes before.

All three are hard-workers with good study habits. That was evident in middle school- they may not have been the brilliant/gifted kids, but they were capable and diligent-- and getting in certainly requires that. All three did undergrad 8 semesters and done. So luck in some sense- nobody had an illness severe enough to require withdrawing, all had enough money to get through undergrad without having to stop the clock to work. But also good planning-- taking the right courses in the right order, not heading off to Australia for junior year with a “maybe” on whether the course credit would transfer, writing the senior thesis first semester of senior year to get the full attention of the professor, instead of second semester when everyone else is doing it.

None of them applied during undergrad- they graduated, got jobs (two health related, one not) to earn money; all three lived at home and did medical related volunteer work on the weekends and at night. (EMT, hospice counseling, and pediatric hospital volunteer, respectively). I don’t know if they took the MCAT’s senior year or not.

Again- nice, focused kids. Two had solid Plan B’s if med school hadn’t come through, the other planned to try again in a year after spending more time on the health care related job. I don’t think any of them had their egos or self-worth completely tied up in becoming physicians- they wanted to give it “the old college try” and all three made it in to more than one place, they chose, and that was that.

CC tends to exaggerate how painful so many of these processes are because we all gravitate towards the outlier story. The kid who applied to 25 colleges- wow! It must be super hard to get into college these days. The kid who spent two years in a Post-Bacc program, and then ended up in Granada for med school- wow, how painful. The kid who tried three times to get into med school and is now going to optometry school- oh my, all that money spent with nothing to show for it (except the title “doctor”.)

Yes, these things happen every year. But this also happens- a kid majors in philosophy or music or literature and takes the med school admission requirements as well. Does enough volunteer and lab research work as an undergrad to demonstrate a commitment to medicine (but you don’t need to be Jonas Salk). Takes a year to work after graduation to round out the application and perhaps demonstrate a different set of skills (if undergrad was lab, then post-grad can be more people oriented or vice-versa). Applies, gets in, goes.

I agree with Calmom that the residency process is the true nightmare!

31

My daughter majored in Psychology and also did the pre-med courses.
Half way through senior year of college she decided she did not want to go to med school…but she finished the pre-med courses anyway.
There are masters-level careers in health…e.g., Physicians Assistant, Pathologists Assistant, Perfusionist, etc.

She is currently looking into those.

My college roommate had a parent like yours…they wanted them to have a back up plan. She majored in Biomedical Engineering but decided med school was not for her either and got a job in biomedical engineering.

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Our next door neighbor just graduated with a BioChem degree. She is now working in a lab at a big time Hospital doing research. She believes she will spend 2 years there and get published and hopefully have her pick of where she wants to go to grad school.

Ironically our D19 is going into BioChem this fall with the idea of being premed as well. For us parents it is quite scary as we are Accountants and the path for that is much clearer. I am finding it a little interesting to learn about the sciences. At an open house in the Spring one student was finishing up her senior year and ended up with 3 majors and is going to Berkley for grad school after turning down Harvard. So D19 started to research more and realized that because of AP credits and the fact there is plenty of overlap in the sciences she can easily add majors and minors to her degree
All I can say is it will be an interesting 4 years. At least she will graduate with no debt. After undergrad she is on her own.

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My D is bio major w/ math minor (and global lit minor) on PhD research track. Agree with others that applied math opens a lot of doors. She loves it and is doing a math/bio REU this summer.

But here’s another ‘fall back’ idea – Physician’s Assistant. Med school is great and noble (my bro is an MD) but it’s a grind, very costly and a stressful job. I think PA is an under appreciated career b/c it pays well, costs less to get the credential, there are jobs wherever you want to live w/ high growth expected, and better life/job balance than being an MD. You get a science degree and then 3 years of additional training and you’re done.

I’ve promoted this w/ my D since PhD market is so unstable these days, but she’s not interested in either med school or PA, alas. In fact, she’s pretty squeamish about anything medical/body related.

Just thought I’d add this into the hopper. I tell all my friends to make sure their kids know about this path too. So many think doctor or nurse and that’s it. . . .

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I know a few people who want to do the PA route and are finding admissions to those programs extremely hard. They require a lot of “hands on” hours before you can apply - time spent as an EMT, etc.

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@kiddie – That’s interesting. I guess the word is out! It’d be interesting to know how hard vs. med school, though…

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Just noting the stats… when roughly 60% of those who apply to med school don’t get in anywhere (US), I’d hardly call that outcome an outlier. Anyone doing so on a stats test would get the question wrong TBH.

But each year roughly 40% who apply make it in so that also is not an outlier. It happens. It’s happened for many we (collective) know including some of our own lads/lasses. It’s just not a given that it “will” happen for any particular student.

It also needs to be remembered that many more decide not to apply after going to college thinking they will be pre-med, so Plan Bs come into play there too. It doesn’t matter if they change their mind due to grades and knowing they are unlikely to make it or merely deciding they like something else better.

37

Agree with the previous advice given.
Med school admissions is all about GPA and MCAT. Prestige of undergrad school matters little. They won’t discount poor grades from ‘hard’ majors like engineering. If anything majoring in something other than biology is an advantage.

Lots of students are taking gap years after undergrad to make their med school application more competitive. Some do research for a year, others do the 1 year post-bacc. The UC schools are known for being incredibly competitive for MD admissions.

As far as backup plans: getting a PhD or masters is always a good option. Anything STEM is in high demand. Math/Applied Math/Data Science/Comp Sci are good degrees, because they are good foundations.

Has she considered applying to BA/PharmD programs? The pharmacy degree is a good backbone for medical school. And it has a built in backup in case she doesn’t get into medical school. Downside is that the GPA for PharmD programs can be tough.