<p>^ The great majority of low-SES boys never even take the SAT.</p>
<p>Well, that is true. They do take these state mandated tests that I see every year. The applicants to this program tend to be the better students in general in the low income at-risk pool. The girls seem to be scoring higher from the ones I see. I do still think that the attitude of these boys (most of whom will never be more than about 5’5" tall) that they are going to be professional football players is still also a big part (or symptom) of the problem!</p>
<p>
Well it is part of the problem. Because if you only ever see people who look like you in particular roles, then what other expectations could you have? That’s why I think men should be encouraged to be teachers. Boys then will be able to see them in other roles, as well. I mean, if you don’t have a dad in your life, how would you know what an accountant or marketing manager or male nurse looks like?</p>
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My, aren’t you a charmer. What would make you think that lack of success is equated with laziness? That’s in your head.</p>
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<p>Children in single sex schools still live in the coed world.</p>
<p>This is exactly why I think there is more to it than single sex schools:
“Children in single sex schools still live in the coed world.”</p>
<p>Unless you have single sex K-12, college, grad schools, workplaces, etc. this won’t fully solve the drop out issue.</p>
<p>
“Having” doesn’t mean mandating. Individual parents could make choices based on their kids’ needs at a particular time. Personally, I would favor the option for single sex middle school most heavily, but I can see the case for high school as well (which I have chosen for my son). But elementary school kids can’t drop out and they aren’t independent, so I don’t think the dropout rate is relevant at that point. But definitely in middle school. I can remember being enough of an old fogey to be shocked that kids in my son’s class were sexually active in 6th grade. No judgment at all, but lots of hormones. And the boys still looked like 8 year olds, while the girls were fully mature. The physical differences at that age are remarkable.</p>
<p>On the pseudo-science supposedly supporting single-sex education (the Science article itself, unfortunately, requires a subscription):</p>
<p>[The</a> Pseudoscience of Single-Sex Schooling](<a href=“http://www.sciencemag.org/content/333/6050/1706]The”>http://www.sciencemag.org/content/333/6050/1706)</p>
<p>[Study:</a> Single-sex education may do more harm than good - Washington Post](<a href=“http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-09-22/local/35274236_1_gender-specific-single-gender-classes-leonard-sax]Study:”>http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-09-22/local/35274236_1_gender-specific-single-gender-classes-leonard-sax)</p>
<p>[Single-sex</a> schooling does not improve academic performance and can lead to gender stereotyping, study finds](<a href=“http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/09/110922141902.htm]Single-sex”>Single-sex schooling does not improve academic performance and can lead to gender stereotyping, study finds -- ScienceDaily)</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/23/education/23single.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/23/education/23single.html</a></p>
<p>And, from The New Yorker</p>
<p>[The</a> Case Against Single-Sex Classrooms : The New Yorker](<a href=“http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2012/07/single-sex-education.html]The”>The Case Against Single-Sex Classrooms | The New Yorker)</p>
<p>The fact remains that there are likely to be more differences between any two boys, or any two girls, than there are between boys and girls as a whole.</p>
<p>And then there’s the fact that mandatory single-sex public education (which now exists in some places, although it’s been legally challenged) can be terribly harmful to boys and girls who don’t fit the broad gender stereotyping about how boys and girls supposedly learn differently. Never mind the lifesaving social benefits that can come from not being limited to single-sex education. I truly do not believe that my son would have survived middle school and high school if there had been no girls around with whom he could socialize, and who befriended him, and didn’t ostracize him because he was generally believed to be gay from the time he was 12: for years, not one single boy in his school was willing to associate with him. Being forced to go to school only with boys would have been a complete nightmare for him. And that’s characterizing it mildly. And it was the same for me, for different reasons, when I was sent to a single-sex school from the time I was 11 to the time I was 17. The damaging effects lasted for years.</p>
<p>Here’s a link to the Science article, in its entirety:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.feminist.org/education/pdfs/pseudoscienceofsinglesexschooling.pdf[/url]”>http://www.feminist.org/education/pdfs/pseudoscienceofsinglesexschooling.pdf</a></p>
<p>These comments are late and probably off-topic, but since I commented I will follow-up.</p>
<p>Firstly, ecouter did a great job in expressing my sentiments.</p>
<p>zoosermom-- Please tell me when I advocated for forced conformity. I do not advocate for forced anything. Don’t group me in any labels, I am an individual with my own opinions and don’t assume I believe anything that I didn’t state here. I advocate for the option for people to be who they are, and have the freedom to deviate from societal norms. I don’t need a biology and anatomy lesson from you (passed that class, thanks) to know the differences between boys and girls. However, children are still largely a product of their environment (no surprise to anyone here). I have plenty of heterosexual guy friends raised by women and therefore “act feminine”. And society negatively judges men like that (in the same vein, “masculine-acting” women are also negatively judged… this is more extreme but helloooooo transgender discrimination policies?!) The fact that boys see school as feminine and are turned off is the problem. There NOTHING wrong with being feminine or masculine. There’s nothing wrong with a boy being feminine or a girl being masculine. The fact that boys see school as feminine and thus look down upon it/don’t try is a problem and I’m surprised that as a woman yourself you don’t see why that’s a problem.</p>
<p>GMTplus7-- if there’s nothing wrong with arts and crafts, why did you refer to them as BS? Arts and crafts and glitter and pretty are no better or worse on the set of a fairytale play than they are in a math classroom. Appropriate for one and inappropriate for the other–yes. BS in any setting, no. </p>
<p>I don’t remember which poster commented about the teacher/principal at the Catholic school, but… You can’t base the judgement and authority of all women teachers/principals on a personal experience with a statistically insignificant sample size. </p>
<p>Since that diverges a bit from the general topic, I will leave that there. Even though I may have posed questions, they are more on the rhetorical side as I don’t follow this thread like I do other threads.</p>
<p>“truly do not believe that my son would have survived middle school and high school if there had been no girls around with whom he could socialize, and who befriended him, and didn’t ostracize him because he was generally believed to be gay from the time he was 12: for years, not one single boy in his school was willing to associate with him. Being forced to go to school only with boys would have been a complete night”</p>
<p>We all have our own experiences. As I posted earlier, my son is not traditionally masculine, but thrives in a school where every boy is free to be exactly the boy he is. Your son’s experience is deplorable, but it is certainly not universal. I don’t recall any posts advocating mandatory single sex education. What I advocate is differentiation. Starting school at the right age for each individual child with significant parental input. Providing an array of excellent options, having respect for others’ choices, classrooms that welcome differences.</p>
<p>One thing I haven’t seen mentioned here is the relationships that often develop between older girls and their female teachers. In a completely positive sense. Role modeling, sharing of experiences, familiar sensibilities. Even a kind of friendship along with the mentoring. That is something that boys just don’t get if there are no male teachers in their lives.</p>
<p>Re the Science article, I don’t think founders of a group supporting co-Ed schooling are exactly unbiased sources.</p>
<p>“The fact that boys see school as feminine and thus look down upon it/don’t try is a problem and I’m surprised that as a woman yourself you don’t see why that’s a problem.”</p>
<p>Well I didn’t make that assertion at all so I won’t address it.</p>
<p>CPUscientist3000-</p>
<p>What the heck?! Do you really believe this?</p>
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<p>I ask because it’s just not true. [Dr</a>. Peggy Drexler: Turning Boys Into Men: 4 Ways to Expand Your Son’s “Boy Power”](<a href=“HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost”>Turning Boys Into Men: 4 Ways to Expand Your Son's "Boy Power" | HuffPost Life)</p>
<p>Consider this. For decades commentators have decried the high rate of single parenthood in some communities. The concern was not that boys raised in these households were becoming effeminate, it was that lack of male role models was causing young men to join gangs, turn to crime, etc. Now you say that the concern is that they’re becoming too feminine? Which is it? Or are our cities being overrun by effeminate gangs? Would that this were true!</p>
<p>Completely agree with zoosermom. In an ideal world, school systems would be well-funded. And the needs of all children could be met so they can flourish. Heck, teachers made changes to be more inclusive of girls. They were filmed, and observed their language and actions. They learned that, yes indeed, they were not calling on girls as often as they called on the boys, and they made changes. That’s a success story. I have a girl and I am glad she gets called on. We need more success stories. </p>
<p>Single sex education might be great for some, not great for others. There is a large gray area, depending on the student, the school, etc.</p>
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<p>This is the root of the problem but you cannot solve it by telling boys that what they feel is wrong. A majority of boys do not want to be in an overly girly environment and simply telling them that their negative emotions are wrong is not going to solve the problem. I would guess that a majority of girls do not want to be in an overly masculine environment either but in school that is not an issue for them.</p>
<p>I think all people benefit from a mix of male and female role models and I think that changing the gender mix in schools will go a long way to helping boys rise to the level of girls. I think it will benefit girls as well. </p>
<p>I don’t think we need to have this debate in absolute terms. Of course there are some boys who exhibit more feminine preferences. And there are girls who exhibit more masculine preferences. A lack of balance in schools doesn’t serve any students well.</p>
<p>Last year (8th grade) my son had a friend who told him his favorite football team sucked. My son pretended to slap him across the face. A (female) teacher saw this and referred my son to the Dean. The dean (male) asked both boys what happened (separately). They both gave the same story. The dean, who had had both of my older sons in class when he was a classroom teacher, called me. He told me that I would get the referral in the mail and that I shouldn’t worry about it. He told me the story and said that female teachers will always refer students to him if they think there is violence and that male teachers will usually let small things slide. Luckily for my son there are male teachers and deans in upper school (7-12 grade). However, at the elementary school that he attended there were only 4/5 male employees over the entire time he went to the school (K-5).</p>
<p>I am a college instructor who sees many bright young men struggling. Schools have really changed. At least here in California the drive to teach to standardized tests leaves very little time in the day for experiential learning. Clearly boys do better if they are able to do not just sit. Today’s teaching approach favors girls learning style…group work, class participation, speaking, writing, generally toeing the line. Boys do better with more hands on activity, spatial challenges, experimentation, and flexibility. These are generalizations of couse but i see it in my students. This topic is so important. When our girls graduate from college it would be nice if there were educated, professional men for them to spend their lives with.</p>
<p>I am a rising senior who has attended an all-male religious school for the past three years after attending a co-ed school for middle school, so I guess I’ve experienced the effects of single-sex and co-ed education and could share my experiences.</p>
<p>Elementary school and middle school had a large importance on projects that were quite “artsy.” Lots of posters, some scrapbooks, etc. I hated artistic projects and still do, and I think that generally most other males would share that sentiment. I also did not have many male teachers. I only had one male teacher in my k-8 education. I think this had some effect on how classes were structured. More female teachers usually led to more projects. I was still a good student from k-8 (though the grades honestly didn’t matter in the long run), but I felt like education wasn’t geared towards me. This was probably more a result of a lopsided gender ratio among my teachers rather than my peers. Since it was a private, relatively expensive school, most parents highly valued education and were quite educated themselves. I’d say over half of the kids had at least one parent that was a doctor/lawyer/successful business owner. For that reason I did not experience the sentiment that school was for girls or was more feminine than masculine, but I wasn’t fully engaged.</p>
<p>I really have enjoyed my high school experience in relation to my grade school one. I’d say about 75% of my classes have male teachers. I never had a problem with not having “male role models” but I could definitely relate better to the teachers, and the teaching method is much better (for me). Typically, a STEM class will have homework about 3-5 times per week, a quiz every 1-2 weeks, and about 3 tests per quarter. Very few projects to speak of in those classes, which I enjoy because most of the STEM projects in grade school felt quite forced and contrived. Humanities classes have big papers as basically the only projects of note. The only classes in which I’ve had to do artsy projects that I dreaded doing were Spanish 2,4, and likely AP next year, taught by the same teacher, who is female. </p>
<p>I don’t think that boys need hands on activity/ spatial challenges any more than girls, nor do I think that public speaking and writing favors girls. Experience tells me otherwise. I think the teachers make more of a difference in terms of teaching style and what they like to see while grading. I frankly find some of the artsy projects I’ve had to do a major pain. One example: for a midterm in my spanish class we had to write a picture book for children. We literally had a hard-back book given to us with blank pages and had to fill it up with a story. I spent hour upon hour filling up and drawing in that book. To date I’ve probably spent more time on that book than I have on any other school project or test. I got an 84, the lowest B possible, on the book because the teacher didn’t like my plot. It was painful writing it, the grade was crushing, and I didn’t really learn anything from the experience. Maybe women are able to see the benefits of doing lots of projects, but I don’t. I feel like my male teachers are more objective in their grading and have less frilly BS, and I’m happier with my education because of it.</p>
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<p>Sounds very much like the Catholic elementary schools I’ve attended or moreso…the ones older adult neighbors attended back in the '50s and '60s. </p>
<p>Only difference is that unlike nowadays when parents and others are trying to make excuses to justify such inclinations…most of us boys were expected to adapt to sit still, not be too boisterous, and “suck it up” or they’ll be sanctions not only from the school/nuns, but also punishments from the parents when we got home.* Such explanations above would have been considered rationalizations to justify “bratty behavior” to the parents in my old neighborhood. </p>
<p>And I say this as someone who was expelled from one Catholic school as a 5 year old first grader for “being too rambunctious” according to the principal who signed my expulsion papers. Granted, we weren’t subjected to being rapped on the wrists with rulers like our older neighbors who attended the same Catholic elementary schools back in the '50s and '60s. </p>
<ul>
<li>One time when an 8 year old classmate at my third grade class was being too boisterous and fidgety and caused a commotion in the classroom, he was not only punished in school. His father, a Vietnam vet and former Marine sergeant and drill instructor punished him by having him run around the block with him multiple times and doing several dozen pushups in full view of neighbors and the public in a park by their apartment. In short…treating him in a similar manner as a non-compliant Marine recruit at bootcamp.</li>
</ul>
<p>
And aren’t you glad that we are all so much more enlightened now than back in the dark ages when you were in school? Now we appreciate diversity, celebrate diferences of thought and experience and all the unique contributions individuals can make. Oh wait. We don’t do that. We set one standard and either punish or ostracize everyone who doesn’t conform.</p>
<p>And cobrat, the post you quoted didn’t refer to bratty behavior, it referred to a lack of physical activity. But your labeling of physical behavior as bratty is part of the overall problem. Folks like you see those things, which are good and healthy, as being boy things to be looked down on and called names. Which they are not.</p>
<p>Movement and activity are not synonymous with “bratty.” Believe it or not, one can be active AND be a boy and still be polite, respectful and appropriate. Those of us who say that boys are not being well-served are not suggesting that standards for courtesy, respect and appropriate conduct should be relaxed. To the contrary, by fostering an environment that encourages different styles of learning, rather than demonizing what is not the flavor of the month, behavior would improve. And as far as boy behavior being “bratty” let me tell you, there are plenty of ways to be bratty and girls know most of them. They are just often bratty in different and less obvious ways.</p>
<p>The flip side to this, as the mother of girls, is that girls can benefit as much or more than boys from physical activity and hands-on experimentation. We bemoan obesity, but curtail activity. We bemoan the lack of women in some professions, but we don’t make skills that might foster those interests readily available. If a girl would rather make a pretty showboard for every project and never gets a nudge to do something outside her comfort zone, then shame on educators because she won’t know what she can do until she tries.</p>
<p>I’m pretty sure part of the problem is that guys learn differently than girls and the way schools work often caters to the way girls learn…</p>
<p>Plus, having female teachers kinda makes it easier (for the system to turn out this way) because the teacher thinks “Well this helps me, it must help them.”</p>
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</p>
<p>While I don’t endorse the lack of awareness regarding LDs and felt my classmate’s Dad’s punishments too extreme, I understand a bit of why the parents were that strict back then. </p>
<p>They were partially doing it out of the fear of raising entitled inconsiderate teens/young adults like some of the 100 Yeshiva students tossed out for continuing to talk and in the process, ignoring aircrew instructions to sit down, buckle in, and turn off & put away all electronics so many times they were kicked off the plane. </p>
<p>Only thing I’m surprised about is that the Yeshiva admins/chaperones are defending the bad behavior whereas 10-20 years ago…most religious schools I know of in the NYC area would have been appalled, apologetic, and expelled the ones who were guilty and effectively forced them to repeat senior year.</p>