<p>Thank you for the kind praise zoosermom. I look forward to seeing how this thread develops.</p>
<p>I hope you will contribute more. You have a lot of good stuff to say.</p>
<p>It is not sexist to recognize that girls hit puberty earlier than boys (1 year earlier on average) and often stand half a foot taller than their male classmates in physical & social maturity in the 6th grade.</p>
<p>It seems that that would be a logical time to offer some differentiation in teaching approach.</p>
<p>NamelesStatistic, in making the claim that “if the solutions to these challenges in the education system were in the form of simple broad changes in teaching approaches, these issues would likely have already been solved,” you are assuming that policy is generally based on honest and good faith attempts to solve society-wide problems, when, particularly in the US, that is rarely the case. Policy formation is influenced by a great many forces, the great majority of which are directed by the self-interested, the narrowly focused, and the short-sighted.</p>
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<p>why change when there is a captive market?</p>
<p>Poetgrl, my point was that it is not solely men’s problem that custodial arrangements are in need of reform, nor is it solely women’s problem that wages are inequitable, necessary societal changes should be worked towards by everyone. These things hurt us as a whole, so they ought to be addressed as a whole. People shouldn’t need to claw their way into a just situation. They needn’t carry that burden alone. Solidarity should be expected.</p>
<p>Rubbish, I wish you would read the rest of my posts on this thread and ascertain that I am in favor of finding some solutions to the “Male Education Gap” primarily because I am having solidarity. I have no sons, but I am in no way anti men.</p>
<p>OTOH, I also think it is time for men to step up and take part in this process of raising and educating our young men, and by that I mean, fathers. The overwhelming issue, frankly, is NOT with men who want but cannot get custody, but with men who simply refuse to take any responsibility for their children.</p>
<p>These problems simply won’t be solved without men. Women have their own problems to contend with and they also aren’t the “answer.” The answer is grown men stepping up and taking responsibility, and if that means some men need to fight the way women have to sometimes fight? They should stop whining and just get on with it. It’s their children’s future. I know when we mothers of daughters read the studies which showed, when our now college aged daughters were starting school, that girls were not called on as often, encouraged into leadership roles, or taken as seriously by their teachers, we did something about it. Just because a demographic group is new to having to fight for their rights, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t start doing it. This is simply sad but true.</p>
<p>I don’t see the issue as one that should be solved by fathers. Mothers have just as much or even more interest (as head of household) to see their sons succeed. I don’t need to be a man to see the struggles that my son experiences.</p>
<p>poetgrl, when the man does not have primary custody, it is very difficult for him to play a significant role in his son’s life. I have seen that with my brother and my best friend. They are both stand up guys who would do anything for their children, but both of their wives left them for greener pastures, including moving far away (which can require court approval, but the guy usually feels pressured to agree), and it has been almost impossible for either of them to play major roles in their sons’ lives.</p>
<p>Bay, I don’t think I need to be a man or even have sons to “See” there is an issue, but I also don’t think, as a woman, I necessarily understand what the best next steps would be here. </p>
<p>Austinareadad, I think that is awful. Truly. My husband’s parents were divorced when H was young, but both of his parents made a strong effort to make sure his father was a huge part of his life. His father turned down at least one very big business opportunity to stay in the neighborhood, and H spent his entire not at camp time in the summers at his Dad’s house.</p>
<p>They are very close, even now.</p>
<p>I have no respect for any woman who would keep her children from a father who wanted to be involved and no respect for any father who does not want to be involved. And Men should continue to lobby and agitate for their parental rights.</p>
<p>My niece said something the other day which I thought was very illuminating. She is in Pre-K now and she has two close friends; let’s call them “Mike” and “Elizabeth.” She told me that their teacher, “Ms. Lucy” always put “Mike” in a corner by himself. I asked her why and her answer was “Mike never does what “Ms. Lucy” wants him to do”. I asked her whether she and “Elizabeth” has ever been asked by the teacher to stand in the corner by themselves, and her answer was no. I asked why? She said “because we always do what “Ms. Lucy” asks us to do!”</p>
<p>That sums up everything, at a tender age of 4 these two ladies have already mastered the art of surviving in this structured setting we currently have, and “poor” “Mike” probably won’t master this art until college.</p>
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<p>I was like “Mike” in pre-elementary and first grade. Heh, I was even tossed from my first Catholic elementary school with extreme prejudice by the principal for it. </p>
<p>While my parents and neighbors understood some students…especially boys had this tendency even back in the '80s, they felt the best way was to explain how there’s a time and a place for the “rambunctiousness” and classrooms aren’t it unless the teacher of a given class gives his/her ok. Moreover, there was an expectation that sometimes in life, we have to learn to deal with suboptimal learning/working/living situations. </p>
<p>It’s something which I’ve grown to appreciate as an undergrad and adult. Especially considering I’ve encountered many college classmates and friends who have had a hard time adjusting to college/grad school/professional expectations because they never learned how to adjust and deal with such suboptimal situations. </p>
<p>One incident which really brings this forth is an incident when an older friend was threatened with being expelled from university because while he made a academically valid criticism of another classmate’s point in a seminar discussion, he did it in such a tactless and nasty manner that it violated college/classroom policies on maintaining basic civility/respect for others.* </p>
<p>From having known him and his parents to some extent…they tended to be the types of parents to excuse or minimize any inappropriate behavior on his part growing up. When he complained about the unfairness of the situation, I had to explain to him that from the vantagepoint of most people in that seminar and the class, whatever good points he made was completely obscured by the tactless, nasty manner, and unprofessional manner in which he expressed it…especially considering it was in a classroom…and one in a college no less.</p>
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<li>I heard about it from several other classmates from that class who also happen to be my friends.</li>
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<p>GMTplus7: When I mentioned my irritation at how some of these comments were becoming borderline sexist I was not saying that acknowledging differences in biological development (eg. height) was sexist I was saying that some of the comments on this thread, such as that girls are “better” than the “average boy” were starting to sound sexist. As well I thought that the debates on custody laws and assigning blame to a particular group for the education gap was off topic and would be ultimately fruitless in trying to address the issue of the education gap
I am not sure I would agree with you on the superior “maturity” of female children however. Maturity (as a social aspect) is a very heterogeneous term and I would contend that any individual differences as well as the specific criteria the personal evaluator uses to define maturity outweighs any general sex trends in maturity, if there are any.</p>
<p>austinareadad: As I stated in my post I am not an American and I acknowledge that my knowledge of US policy is limited. However I would at least hope (and I hope that I am not naive in saying this) that the bulk of education policy decisions are done with the best interests of children in mind.</p>
<p>In analyzing the education gap I would suggest that simply looking at college acceptance and completion rates is a bit deceptive. As sad as it is the value of a degree varies dramatically based on your major. For example the generally (and I only say GENERALLY) male dominated STEM fields and business (particularly engineering) tend to have much better career prospects than many of the more stereotypically female dominated degrees in the humanities and social science (eg. psychology, sociology, women’s studies, ect.) and that in any cases the employment and salary prospects for some these degrees are significantly lower than the prospects for many male dominated vocational diplomas such as plumbing. Therefore I would contend that while female students may be achieving more degrees, the actual financial value of those degrees in the working world may not put them at much more of an advantage than similarly aged males. </p>
<p>This would open up an interesting topic on how to structure humanities and social science degrees in a way that would make them attractive to potential employers and make them able to compete with the STEM fields for high paying jobs in the workplace. If anyone has any ideas in that regard it would be interesting to hear them.</p>
<p>NamelesStatistic, I would prefer not to use a pejorative term like “naive,” but having worked for decades with those at the state level who live in the political/policymaking world, I will say that I believe you are not as jaded as I am.</p>
<p>As for bringing custody issues into the discussion, I have found that when the current public policy with regard to a topic leaves the public ill-served and that the mainstream narrative does not appear to offer any clear paths forward out of the morass, it often helps to construct new narratives in order to find approaches that may provide some agreed-upon alternative.</p>
<p>And, to piggyback on what AAD is saying, you have to take into account the absolute fact that every educator will flat out say, when you point to the system not working, that it is the “parents” who are responsible.</p>
<p>I simply have no idea how you can discuss education issues in the united states, the “Male Education Gap” without discussing absent fathers. And, this is from two perspectives: the ones who choose to be absent, and the ones who are excluded by the bad policy Rubish and AAD have pointed to, as well.</p>
<p>If men are not a part of the dialogue and the solution, I’m not sure there will be a solution that actually works.</p>
<p>JMO.</p>
<p>Educators should be able to easily identify the areas where boys are having difficulty. They are the professionals. They see and teach thousands of boys and girls. Parents live through the experiences of only one or two on average, so they have a much more difficult time figuring out whether their sons’ issues are unique or systemic. Why aren’t educators solving the problem?</p>
<p>Poetgrl, I agree completely. Boys and girls need fathers. However, since single parents and teachers are overwhelmingly female, I think we do have to account for and try to mitigate the impact of the absence of adult males in the lives of boys.</p>
<p>I also applaud you for caring about that since you have girls. I was the mom of two girls for a decade before God laughed at my plans and sent a boy. I could never have imagined how different they are, but they really are. People who expect boys to conform in the same way as girls on a daily basis are delusional. Even polite, well behaved boys can be miserable and even when they are doing well on a measurable basis, they may not be working to their potential. I just believe with my whole heart that there are many different ways of being successful and that there can be enough goodies for everyone. Girls and families of girls don’t need to see a desire for male success as an indication that anyone wants to squash female success. Both can and should be respected, accommodated and encouraged. It is sad that America had become a place where everyone is in their own group and every other is the enemy.</p>
<p>Bay, there are a lot of people who have a vested interest in diagnoses and placements and testing and lower rations. Those people want as many diagnoses as possible. There are also rules in place that thwart educators. Every teacher that my son had (and he has never been a discipline problem and has always been on the honor role) has said that he should have been in school a year later, but there is no leeway for that decision Here. I bet there are many kids in a similar situation. And that’s just one way educators can’t use their informed judgment on behalf of kids.</p>
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<li>This comment illustrates one of the reasons why US K-12 education has serious issues in general. The increasing phenomenon of parents offloading responsibilities onto and having unreasonable expectations of teachers.<br></li>
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<p>Last I checked, the job of a teacher is to teach the subject(s) he/she’s licensed to teach, grade all work completed, and to maintain classroom control/discipline while class is in session. Why are we expecting them to be psychologists, childhood development specialists(a field in its own right), and proxy parents because the actual parents can’t be bothered???</p>
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<li>If you want educators to be professionals like you envision, start by paying and/or according them the higher status of professionals like one accords to doctors, lawyers, MBAs, etc. From what I’ve observed in US mass media, many parents at PT conferences as a student, and the contempt with which K-12 teachers/teaching is regarded by many parents…especially those of higher SES…it’s a miracle there are still idealistic dedicated best and brightest students who are going into the profession.<br></li>
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<p>Even so, this contempt along with other BS associated with teaching K-12 are key reasons most of the best & brightest students end up burning out and leaving for better paying/careers which accord much more respectful treatment from others/larger US society.</p>
<p>Cobrat, teachers are the professionals best able to assess students and they do. I think you don’t know what teachers are actually taught or what they actually do. In some places, like where you and I live, senior teachers have better pay and benefits than many lawyers and some doctors.</p>