<p>I've posted this a few other places but I want general opinions.</p>
<p>I'm currently committed to going to Brown, but I was just offered a spot on the Swarthmore waitlist. As Chicago was my first choice (where I was denied), and I've often heard S and C compared, I haven't quite been able to bring myself to say no yet. I was really drawn to the intellectual curiosity at Chicago, and that's something that seems to exist in full force at Swarthmore (although I'm sure Brown too) as well. Being politically active, I'm attracted by the very activist spirit and some of the organizations at S.</p>
<p>As far as size goes, here's where I waffle. Really what I want is a place where I will be in small classes and know everyone's name, but that has plenty of interesting classes, resarch opportunities, clubs, and guest lecturers. Obviously the two aren't quite compatible.</p>
<p>Those are two great choices. I don't know how anyone could say you were making a bad choice either way.</p>
<p>You've got a handle on the differences. Obviously Swarthmore is a more boutique-scale college with small classes and knowing everyone's name. Swarthmore may have a slight edge in research opportunities simply because of the per student endowment and the honors program. Brown is obviously going to have a broader selection of clubs, more guest lectures, more classes -- just as a result of its larger size.</p>
<p>I don't know what to tell you. One of the long-time College Confidential parents had one child at each school and both were very happy.</p>
<p>One factor that I would point out is the incredible diversity at Swarthmore. Along with Harvard, it is the most ethnically diverse coed elite college on the east coast. It is fundamental to the campus culture, so you should weigh that appropriately in your decision making.</p>
<p>I also think most students will find Swarthmore to be, on average, more academically challenging, compared to almost any school. Swarthmore students work hard and the academic experience is at a pretty high level.</p>
<p>You know what they say about schools like Chicago and Swat....where fun goes to die. On the other hand Brown is known as a fun, freewheeling place with students deciding what to take and whether they want a grade.</p>
<p>Most people belong one place or the other clearly in their minds.</p>
<p>Head to the nearest mirror and have a discussion with yourself about who you are!</p>
<p>Well lfsc, it is just too bad that you can not get some more general opinions. As you see, interesteddad bias for Swarthmore is repetitive. I am sure you already caught it on the other thread. I will resist the need to expose it on this one.</p>
<p>From what I've heard, Swat is pretty rigid and intense as far as academics go. I'm headed to the Brown and I must say that the open curriculum was one of the biggest selling points IMO.</p>
<p>
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Swat is pretty rigid and intense as far as academics go
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</p>
<p>As far as "intense"... Swarthmore is school where, on average, the students really enjoy their classes and the professors enjoy teaching them. On average, students show up to class having done most of the assigned reading, which frees up the professors to push a little further. It's a mutually reinforcing feedback loop where both students and professors have high expectations of each other. You don't tee it up at Swarthmore unless you are expecting to play a challenging course from the back tees. Shoot a low score and you know you've play a fine round of golf.</p>
<p>As far as "rigid", I assume you mean distribution requirements. Swarthmore has a pretty standard set of requirements. Three courses each in Social Sciences, Humanities, and Math/Science/Engineering -- some of which can be fulfilled with AP test scores.</p>
<p>BTW, slight correction in the interest of full disclosure... my daughter just graduated from Swarthmore.</p>
<p>MyOpinion, obviously I'm expecting some bias in the responses. Do you prefer Brown, or are you just trying to enforce neutrality? (I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter.)</p>
<p>I would imagine that GIVEN the Open Curriculum, academics at Brown are more commonly intense because students have the opportunity to pursue their true passions, and are thus more motivated to study and work hard.</p>
<p>The intensity of academics and the rigorous academic atmosphere at Swat may be a stereotype that is perpetuated by outsiders and by the institution itself, but that doesn't mean it's always true.</p>
<p>interesteddad, i know you like swarthmore a lot, but you are overstating things. </p>
<ol>
<li>it's difficult to support your assertion that swarthmore has an edge in research by any objective measure. brown is a research university, swarthmore is not. </li>
</ol>
<p>-brown has much more reknown faculty, while maintaining the same commitment to undergrads (all faculty at brown are required to teach undergrads). Nobel laureates and former presidents (of Brazil and Bolivia) all teach small undergrad seminars at Brown. Brown also has more faculty who have won presitigious fellowships (former rhodes scholars, macarther genius award winners, academy members, etc.). </p>
<p>-Brown wins more high profile research grants by a large margin. </p>
<p>-Brown has much more extensive research facilities ($50 million undergraduate chemistry lab, $100 million life sciences building, $20 million humanities center, etc.). </p>
<ol>
<li><p>the operating budget per undergrad at both schools is identical and this is the bottom line measure for the avaibility of resources. the brown budget is supported with multiple revenue streams, while swarthmore has to rely solely on tuition and endowment. as you acknowledge in another thread, there are also important economies of scale.</p></li>
<li><p>you have to reach to claim swarthmore is more meaningfully diverse than brown. 10% of the student body at brown is international, all 50 states and 63 countries are represented.</p></li>
</ol>
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1. it's difficult to support your assertion that swarthmore has an edge in research by any objective measure. brown is a research university, swarthmore is not.
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</p>
<p>The question was about undergraduate research, not grad school research and research contracts.</p>
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2. the operating budget per undergrad at both schools is identical and this is the bottom line measure for the avaibility of resources. the brown budget is supported with multiple revenue streams, while swarthmore has to rely solely on tuition and endowment. as you acknowledge in another thread, there are also important economies of scale.
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<p>I'll have to get back to you. Brown's website is dead and I can't get their annual financial reports. From what what I can get, it looks like Brown's per student expenditures, including grad students, are lower than Swarthmore's. Grad students typically cost 1.5 to 2 times each undergrad.</p>
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3. you have to reach to claim swarthmore is more meaningfully diverse than brown. 10% of the student body at brown is international, all 50 states and 63 countries are represented.
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</p>
<p>It's pretty widely available data. From US News, Brown undergrad is 36% minority or international (6% international). Swarthmore is 42% minority or international (also including 6% int.) Those are from the 2006-07 academic year. I'll give you the 2007-08 numbers if Brown gets their website running so I can download their Common Data Set.</p>
<ol>
<li>quality of undergrad research obviously hinges very much on access to research facilities, prominent faculty, and grant support--all of which are in much greater abundance at brown. </li>
</ol>
<p>swarthmore has several advantages, but research simply isn't one of them.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>you are ignoring economies of scale. swarthmore also has a higher per student endowment than columbia, penn, and several other great schools. nonetheless, it is inaccurate to say swarthmore students have access to more resources.</p></li>
<li><p>brown is 10% international, swarthmore is 8% international, both have about 1/3 underrepresented minorities. no substantial difference to write home about.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>The schools are different in various ways. But I don't think their percentage of international students or diversity differs much at all. By the way, on Brown's own website, 10% of the current student body are international.</p>
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brown is 10% international, swarthmore is 8% international, both have about 1/3 underrepresented minorities. no substantial difference to write home about.
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</p>
<p>OK, Brown's website is back up. Here are the Fall 2007 enrollment numbers, straight from the common data sets:</p>
<p>Brown undergrad degree-seeking
7.0% international
6.8% African american
0.7% American indian
15.3% Asian American
8.4% Hispanic/Latino
61.9% White/Unknown</p>
<p>Swarthmore undergrad degree-seeking
6.6% international
8.4% African american
0.9% American indian
17.3% Asian American
10.4% Hispanic/Latino
56.3% White/Unknown</p>
<p>OK, the website is back and I could download the most recent annual financial report.</p>
<p>Here are the per student financials for the academic year ending June 2007. These per student expenditures are calculated by taking the total operating expense reported on the year end financial statement divided by the number of students. For Brown, the number of students includes both undergrads and grad students. For Swarthmore, it's obviously just undergrads. These figures do not include financial aid, which is treated as a discount or reduction to revenues for accounting purposes.</p>
<p>The difference is actually larger than that. Brown is spending somewhere above it's average figure on each grad student and somewhere below its average on each undergrad. Of course, the biggest difference in expense is the labor costs of a small boutique style education with very small classes.</p>
<p>And here's what the average student is paying</p>
<p>Average per student tuition and fees after aid discounts
Brown: $22,831
Swarthmore: $21,212</p>
<p>And where a big chunk of the extras comes from</p>
<p>If you are talking about the Fall 2008 class, the diversity numbers always look better for the acceptances than for the actual enrolled freshmen. African Americans and Latino/a students yield (or enroll) at much lower rates than white and Asian American students. That's why Swarthmore sends less than half of its accpetance letters to white US students, but they will end up being about 56% of the overall student body.</p>
<p>If you want first-year numbers for fall 2007/08, those are in the common data set filings here:</p>
<p>They are usually a bit better than the overall student body numbers, again because African Americans and Latino/a tend to have (but not always) slightly lower retention rates. The full student body numbers are really the ones to use as they smooth out any year to year fluctuation. </p>
<p>For example, twice in the last eigth years, Swarthmore has had the highest African American percentage of freshmen ever for an "elite" college or university (12%). But, that number is not really representative of Swarthmore's overall African American enrollment. It was just a couple of statistically good minority recruiting years.</p>
<p>I was using percent of the admitted class that are international which is about 10%, off Brown's website, sorry. </p>
<p>As far as enrollment, yes, what you have listed in post #15 is correct. But the point remains the same. The point was that there are differences between these two fine schools. But the percentage of internationals, or even diversity, is NOT of any significant difference, per your post of figures in post #15.</p>
<p>I didn't say that the differences in diversity were earthshattering. These are two excellent schools with excellent students that share a considerable number of cross-admits.</p>
<p>I was simply pointing out that one difference is that Swarthmore is unusually diverse. Even compared to Brown, it has 6% more non-white and internation students. That's a significant difference, as is the difference in per student expenditures.</p>