Brown ED down, then RD way up

Colleges and Universities A-Z Brown University
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<p>I just wanted to clarify, that while I do admit that I have a very cynical view on the objectives of universities in general, with respect to undergrad experience, it's not completely baseless, I think. </p>

<p>In fact, I too was always under the impression that the undergrad experience should be the greatest area of concentration for any major university, but I have come to learn from some of my friends that some schools DO focus, as they should, more on things like research and graduate studies.</p>

<p>That said, my point was more similar to erika's, that schools, as much as they wish to accept students who will fit into their culture, which brown does exceptionally well even now, have to consider things like aid required viz-a-viz their endowments.</p>

<p>It's cynical, but I think it's realistic, and I don't think the brown administration can say that their sole purpose is to provide for the best undergraduate experience they can manage simply because there are way too many considerations in running a university.</p>

<p>As for roflcopter's point, I believe the benefit of the UK system is they admit people almost purely on their A-level grades, and extra testing (which Cambridge does, but I'm not sure about Oxford). The UCAS application system only requires a single essay and one teacher's recommendation, and the essay is some boring thing like listing your activities and classes.</p>

<p>The US system, which due to the holistic approach to applications, I think cannot sustain a one or the other system because it's more about the fit of the student with the school rather than the grades. For Oxbridge, they pretty much know that whoever applies will have stellar grades.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I think the Oxbridge system (where students must pick either Oxford or Cambridge to apply to) would work well for the Ivy League. It would cut down on applications and more qualified students would be admitted. But then colleges would lose out on their beloved ridiculously low admission rates. Oh, the horror!

[/quote]

That would be EXCELLENT. It'd be very easy to implement, too.</p>

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<p>Dudboi-- that's exactly what Brown is about though, you're missing the point. Some schools SHOULD focus on research and graduate education, but Brown has NEVER been about that. Read all of the material back over a hundred years about the way that we view the balance of research and the graduate school as part of the undergraduate experience. Our endowment is raised through alumni donations-- not through tuition. Tuition goes directly into the operating budget of the university. More than that, we've been need blind for US students for quite some time now (is it ten years?) which means we have no idea what your financial needs may be when we're assessing you're application-- we do not create a class based on endowment (no one does). Brown's goal is not to be THE premier place for graduate education.</p>

<p>The education is what Brown is about. Education is what is central to Brown's mission. Our mission is not to be the best research destination, it's to be the best institute of higher education we can be, most especially for our undergraduate population.</p>

<p>What other factors do you think there are? We don't employee professors in normal departments who do not have teaching requirements for undergraduates, period. That is our mission, that is our purpose as viewed by the administration. Education, period. We want to have a strong graduate school for the students we bring here and we bring students here in the graduate school so that our professors can be productive researchers because we believe its important for our teachers to also be working at a high level in their field.</p>

<p>The university-college concept is one you're clearly not familiar with as it applies to Brown.</p>

<p>As for the Oxbridge system, I'm not sure if I think that'd work well. I'd have to think about that.</p>

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<p>def because of common app</p>

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<p>No modest, I'm completely aware of the system that you have explained, and I know that it is indeed brown's main aim to offer the best undergraduate education there is. </p>

<p>Okay, let's put it this way. It would seem that your idea would definitely help improve the experience that a Brown student would have, since based on your assumptions, everyone who will enter Brown this way will love it immensely and have a clear and common understanding of the Brown identity. My question to you, then, is why hasn't this been implemented already (or at least thought of and explored. Then again, it could've been and I may be wrong)? </p>

<p>I'm not saying that it's about the endowment, because clearly I don't know enough about how exactly Brown uses its endowment (which you have since cleared up, thank you). I'm saying that schools always have other considerations, and endowment is sometimes one of those considerations. Of course it doesn't apply to Brown in this case, but I'm sure the administration must have other considerations as to why it doesn't constantly seek to find the perfect brunonian student body. What exactly those considerations are, I'll be first to admit I have no idea.</p>

<p>Yes, that is their aim, as it should be, but I think we can all agree that it tries to achieve that, but maybe it hasn't. (If it has, then there won't be any need for your idea already, would there? Not that it isn't a great idea, cause I do think that it is.)</p>

<p>Brown's non-need-blinded-ness for internationals is something that provides an example of this as well, no?</p>

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<p>Brown's non-need blind admissions of internationals is a financial resources issue-- we've not yet chosen that it's worth the money to go in that direction though I think we will go that direction quite soon.</p>

<p>The reason it hasn't been tried yet is because it's radically different than the system students expect when they apply to college. It has been tried in the past, in the sense that that was the clear mission and attempt of admissions for a short period of time under President Wriston. They didn't make admissions binding but they really did do their best to sort out for whom Brown was a top choice. We still do that today, but I think it's harder to discern that information in today's admissions climate.</p>

<p>Radical things are hard to do. There's the issue of the common notification within the Ivy League, restructuring how the admissions department works, actually being transparent about financial aid (which would be quite a radical move for any university, that change alone would have us written up in every newspaper), etc.</p>

<p>FWIW, the perfect Brunonian isn't someone who just confirms the existing system, as was criticized earlier. In fact, Elliot Maxwell, one of the authors of the new curriculum, would likely argue that the perfect Brunonian is constantly seeking something better for Brown, and when they found it, they'd write their own Draft on a Working Paper and knock on doors and make it happen.</p>

<p>I don't think my idea is possible to implement, but I think it would be an extremely interested experiment and probably would be beneficial in the mid- and long- term for Brown.</p>

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<p>Ahh. So those are the other considerations. But indeed like you said it should be an interesting experiment. I assume colleges don't usually put survey questions on their applications, do they? Then again, Brown is no where near usual.</p>

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<p>modestmelody: Brown has been need blind for a relatively short time. I don't remember the exact year, but Simmons instituted it sometime during her first few years on campus.</p>

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<p>It was class of 2007, so the year we admitted students need blind was 2002/2003. Just looked it up.</p>

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<p>The ED being down and RD being up is a clear sign of kids hedging their bets because of the downturn. With the common app, it is easy for kids to carpet bomb schools with applications and it is a nice ego trip for them to get these ivy leaque interviews. But parents are going to make the final decisions on where their kid is going ,and schools like Brown and Georgetown, with low endowments are going to be very vulnerable. I know of one family where the kid was doing his U Penn interview, meanwhile his dad lost his high paying job, and now they are saying the kid will need to pay for his state school.</p>

<p>This year will be the tipping point where the private schools (with the exceptions of HYPSM) are going to see dramatic reduction in their yields.</p>

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<p>But Brown is need-blind for Americans. As long as parents update their financials accordingly, students should not have a problem affording need-blind private schools.</p>

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<p>And additionally, Brown is up significantly compared to its peers. In fact, more than any peer (Stanford was closest with a 20% increase).</p>

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<p>we let us defer the discussion until the end of the summer, when we should know the yield rate for Brown and other private schools. I say we should wait until summer because a lot of kids are going to commit to different schools then the parents will be watching the economy before writing the big check.</p>

<p>I think these schools are going to take a huge amount of kids (who can afford it) off of the wait lists.</p>

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<p>I am fascinated by your definition of "low endowment," MiPerson. Most colleges in the US would love to have an endowment as high as Brown's.</p>

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<p>since Brown is always comparing itself against the elite private schools, it is right to compare their endowment against their "peers" , but Brown's endowment is really low.</p>

<p>Notre Dame actually incrreased their budget by 5% for next year and said they would not have any lay-offs or cutbacks.....but look at what Brown is having to do.</p>