Brown Fin aid, SBmom, Susan, any other help appreciated

Parents Forum
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<p>In reading Jake's post about Brown and Financial Aid, I am brought to ask a couple of questions that are somewhat different but may shed some light on the way Brown handles financial aid for middle income folks. </p>

<p>A poster on Jake's GW-Brown thread says Brown makes you borrow a lot. Seems so to me, too: Brown has asked son to borrow about 3100 more per year than any of his other schools, and the parent contribution is about 4000-5000 more than Swarthmore or Pomona.</p>

<p>He got very good packages from Swarthmore and Pomona. From Wash U he got a package comparable to Brown, though with only the 2,650 in Stafford as opposed to Stafford plus 3100 at Brown. </p>

<p>At Rhodes, which we wish were higher on his list, he has a Bellingrath, which covers all tuition, fees, room and board. With the TN lottery scholarship, he could have money for pizza and concerts. (Hard to lay off the arm-twisting techniques, but we really want this whole college thing to be a choice he makes if we can manage it.)</p>

<p>We have the funds to cover the parent contribution for this year and can save some over the course of the next years. We live very frugally. </p>

<p>My questions are two: 1) Does any parent with direct experience of Brown know if the loans stay stable each year, or would they likely go up as the Stafford ceiling went up? If such were the case the ultimate indebtedness would be about 26,000 as opposed to 17,100 at the other places, which is a significant amount. </p>

<p>2) Does any parent know how Brown views aid when there are siblings also in college? We will have another kid in college next year. This is quite pressing for us as we will likely have to pay all of my stepson's college expenses; his mother is sitting on good assets and refuses to contribute. We are school-teacher people, and have no real extras to count on.</p>

<p>Thanks for helping us sort this out.</p>

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<p>Momofthree,</p>

<p>Don't be afraid to ask Brown for a financial review even if it means asking them to meet the Swarthmore or Ponoma offer.</p>

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<p>I wish I could help more than I am gonna be able to. My daughter is also on financial aid at Brown. If I recall, last year at this time (when acceptances and FA awards came out), Brown, I think, had the least in the "grant" part of the award than other schools she got into, and I am not counting the three colleges on her list that gave merit aid, just the need based kind now. We let her pick where she wanted to go and we do have numerous loans to send the kids to college. One thing you should know is that the president of Brown has a policy that the work-study part of the package for freshman is paid as a grant as she does not want them to work freshman year. </p>

<p>As to subsequent years while at Brown and if the package is adjusted....well, I can't say for sure as we are NOW at that juncture reapplying for aid for her sophmore year. However, I TRULY believe the package should be improved because we will now have TWO kids in college next year with the second child entering freshman year. My second child has now gotten her financial aid packages with her acceptances and they are very generous. For one thing, her schools have merit scholarships and she got generous ones at each school. But on top of that, there were grants as part of the FA need based package and I recall one school even calling it a "sibling grant" or some such because of two kids in college. I think the packages might have been better than D1's because we now have two kids listed as college students, though I realize it is unfair to compare D2's college financial aid offers with a different list of schools than D1 had gotten into (again just talking the need based part, not the fact that she also won merit scholarships). So, based on THESE recent FA package offers from D2's colleges, I am expecting Brown to also readjust their second year offer in light of the two kids in college syndrome. I just can't give you the definitive answer if the second year's package improves over the first year. </p>

<p>I also think it is truly in your bests interests to speak to a financial aid officer at Brown as they can be informative about THEIR practices whereas I am generalizing on my basic understanding, more than about Brown specifically. They seem very open to parents calling with questions. </p>

<p>Let me know if your son winds up choosing Brown and if it can work for your family. He has such fine choices. If one school offers way more than another, I can understand that factoring into his choices. If they differ by a tiny bit, I am not sure it will matter in the long run enough to influence his college choice. I understand the full ride thing (my D had one too, and another school with a $15,000/year scholarship, but both were safeties for her, like for your son), yet I know you would have a tough time insisting he take that safety given his other prospects and that you let him apply to these selective schools that do not give merit aid. </p>

<p>Please try to get a fuller understanding from Brown's FA office, just to be sure you are weighing your "cards" (or letters as the case may be) based on accurate information.</p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>Sybbie, Thanks! I guess I have been a little intimidated about asking them for a review as I had read so much about them being tight with financial aid.</p>

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<p>Susan,</p>

<p>I really appreciate your taking such a lot of time to answer my question. I am not sure if the whole thing will result in my son attending Brown, but as he said, he was almost giddy with excitement when he got in. I am thankful that he does have such great choices, and I am not afraid of financial challenges if they need to be met. Just hoping, as you wisely suggest, to have all the cards on the table. I am so glad that you think the FA folks are nice at Brown. They have been nice at Wash U, too, where I have tried to get info about the second sibling. But, though nice, they are vague in their response. I decided to email and to ask what the aid would have looked like THIS year if we had had two in college, since they hesitate to answer anything about next year based on potential changes in income assets. (Course we do know that they won't likely change much.)</p>

<p>Susan, did your daughter hesitate to borrow as much as Brown has asked? My son is likely to go into some sort field upon graduation which will not yield the big bucks: he may go into music, teaching, or the ministry and not :) as a televangelist.</p>

<p>By the way, Susan, I am so thrilled about your second D's news and about her aid prospects. You guys have been through so much. I am so glad there is much to cheer you. Continued blessings sent your way!</p>

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<p>Brown has a lot of money. If Brown is your son's first choice, I'd ask them to reevaluate your need, based on the Pomona and Swarthmore packages. Need awards from other schools won't make any real difference to them. </p>

<p>Once the dust settles on that, I'd address the year 2 issue. Most schools will recalculate the aid factoring in the second college sibling.</p>

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<p>I had a friend whose oldest daughter graduated Brown a couple of years ago. They had three kids and for one year all were in college at the same time - oh my aching wallet. Anyway they went round with the brown fin aid office because daughter had offers from other schools as well. They were told brown didn't care unless the other schools were Duke or Stanford. I don't think Pomona College or Swarthmore are considered competition (or more likely Duke and Stanford are not part of the non-compete combine the top schools have going). In years past the Ivy's actually met formally and decided exactly how much specific families would be offered in "need" based aid. They didn't want to compete with each other on price. The feds went after them and they stopped the policy formally - the CSS Profile was the replacement vehicle.</p>

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<p>Actually Paxtuxent's post rings a bell in my terrible memory, lol. Now, I recall last year at this time my husband did talk to the FA office at Brown and mentioned better offers my D got from other colleges and they did say that it did not matter unless the offer was from a college like theirs (ie., Ivy League, etc.). The other Ivy she got into was Penn and I think their package was not much different, so no bargaining chip there. Hope that answers that one aspect. </p>

<p>And thanks for your kind thoughts regarding my daughter. Yes, she has been through a lot and yes, it is not over (less anxious and much improved but not like normal life but did finally get off bed rest in our living room today!).
Susan</p>

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<p>momofthree,</p>

<p>If your son had an interview-- and if he connected with the interviewer-- place a call ASAP and have your interviewer intercede with Fin Aid. </p>

<p>I did this for one of my interviewees (who got $5K more elsewhere but wanted Brown.) Brown adjusted package. No guarantee of this but yes, they have done this in the past.</p>

<p>I am very very happy for you and your son! Bravo!! Great choices!! Let us know how this turns out.</p>

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<p>Thanks again folks! My son's interviewer actually lives in the town we do, and he made a great connection through the interview. If it does turn out that Brown is choice numero uno, I will have him ask the interviewer for help with this. Such an adjustment as was made for SBmom's friend would really help! We don't have any other ivy schools to compare . . .son hasn't heard from Princeton yet, but we are surely not holding our breath for that one.</p>

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<p>Aie, I got into Brown, and they have offered a finaid package substantially worse than Dartmouth or Wesleyan. I'm trying to figure out whether it's worth it to ask for more... The current package is simply unfeasable. However, I have decent aid from Wes, so I might just go with that.</p>

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<p>Patuxent,</p>

<p>They probably have to draw the line somewhere because they could not start competing with merit aid schools or tier-down schools who "pay" to get great stat kids.</p>

<p>Still very much worth a try, esp if they "need" your kid for some specific ECs and balance, or if they just want him.</p>

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<p>Interestingly, Brown, Swarthmore and Pomona are all part of the 568 President's Working Group, which claim all to have similar ways of looking at financial aid. This has been particularly important to us when we helped son decide what schools he might apply to, as we have a situation of divorce and remarriage, and 568 schools supposedly look at only two parent's income/assets rather than all. Wash U, for instance, is not a 568 school, and as I mentioned before, Brown offered a package a lot like Wash U, and not like Pomona and Swat. I think I am most concerned about my son borrowing a lot more money himself, which we would be hard-pressed to help him with. I really have very low expectations of more help from Brown, but I am willing to make the effort, or to ask my son to write them and include the offers he has received.</p>

<p>Thanks for continuing the conversation!</p>

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<p>So SBmom if the Ivy's and Brown only give need based aid and not merit aid and not atheletic scholarships how exactly did your intervention materially change the "need" of that family by $5000?</p>

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<p>They reviewed the formula that the other place had used to make aid package, and I guess they thought it held water.</p>

<p>It was about 10 years ago so I don't remember exact details but I think it may have involved apportioning more to grant and less to loan. Also there was a very ill single parent involved; it may be that the expenses of the lost income and medical care were viewed differently at different schools. </p>

<p>It is however typical for 5 "need based" schools to come up with 5 different numbers. Each uses a slightly different formula; some count home equity and some don't, etc.</p>

<p>BTW, I do agree with you that some "need based" schools do give "merit" money to athletes. I am aware of a kid whose family had a very high EFC yet who got aid at a "need based" D-3 school when the D-1 privates gave him NADA.</p>

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<p>While my DD did not get accepted at Brown (which is fine because she did get into all of her top choices and is having a difficult time deciding amongst them), I do recall that Brown sent out a postcard last year announcing a large contribution to be used for scholarships. Looking through our file on Brown, I found it and it says "$100 million Gift (from Sidney E. Frank) for Financial Aid Provides More Scholarships" and goes on to indicate that "By giving the University these new financial aid resources Mr. Frank has ensured that the nation's brightest young scholars can attend Brown regardless of their financial circumstances and without the specter of growing indebtedness," said President Simmons.</p>

<p>This sounds like a promise to me. I think you should inquire about this and see whether this was simply a "come on" to encourage students to apply or if this will be used as indicated. I may be naive about these things, but asking never hurt.</p>

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<p>Lp75,</p>

<p>Good to hear from you. I was very impressed by your D's schools, and hope all will move smoothly for you as you seek care for her and make that big decision! </p>

<p>I have to admit, I was pretty glad early on to read about the big money Brown got, and was happy that they had become "need-blind." However, I think that the money that was given was intended for the lowest income folks rather than middle class families, so I don't think it helped us. And I am glad that Brown now has a way to assist those with lower EFC's. I would have fit that category a couple of years ago before I remarried, so I value that effort. (And I wouldn't trade my husband for all the financial aid in the world!)
:) :) :)</p>

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<p>Thank you, Momofthree! We were not sure what to expect and applied to way too many schools thinking that she would receive many more rejections. I think we are overwhelmed with her choices. </p>

<p>It may be that Brown will be using this for those who have a greater financial need. And while that makes sense, it is certainly would be nice if they were able to spread it around a bit more also.</p>

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<p>Well SBmom whatever the details of that decade old transaction I am sure that Brown was not buying test score or lowering itself into the shabby practice of competing for top students with tier down schools. Now if you will excuse me I have an appointment with the Tooth Fairy to discuss dental hygiene.</p>

<p>The best reason not to go to an Ivy league school is that the blighters who do graduate from them actually believe the lies they tell. There is either something in the water or it is the most successfull brainwashing cult since Jonestown.</p>

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<p>patuxent, </p>

<p>Post after post of yours makes clear your negativity towards the financial practices of elite schools. Fine, we get it!!</p>

<p>I suppose you would prefer that I had not interceded and Brown had not raised the kid's grant! Gee, if you can spin that tale as bad news you must be a very dark person.</p>

<p>BTW: The school with the better aid pkg with was not a tier down school, it was a peer school. This kid was in to 4-5 elite schools (Princeton, Duke, Stanford, etc) but wanted Brown for fit. He presented his best competing peer offer, and it was matched. </p>

<p>At that time, and to this day, Brown does not have the wealth of HYPS. Their FA packages today, under Simmons, are basically spending down a reserve, in anticipation of future giving & revenue. In the last 2 years, they have put the cart of "need blind" before the horse of $$ on principle. And they occasionally fall short.</p>

<p>Bad, bad Brown! </p>

<p>Finally, read more carefully: I agreed with your basic point that "buying" does occur. I don't think that was the case here... but I did not say that it does not go on, I concede that it does. </p>

<p>The kid in question was needy-- & not a football player. I do not know what his SATs were, because interviewers don't get that info-- but he was obviously smart and accomplished. He was one of the finest candidates I have ever interviewed, so I remember <em>him</em> & his circumstances, if not the details of his aid package, very well. </p>

<p>He was a person who, despite a mountain of hardship, had achieved major successes. Due to one absentee parent and the fact the other was frequently hospitalized with a terminal illness, he had raised a younger sibling while blasting through a magnet school with high honors and participating in a non-revenue sport. </p>

<p>What really won me over was his exceptionaly positive, non-self-pitying attitude. He did not see his accomplishments as anything other than normal. Amazing resilience.</p>

<p>My H & I had him to dinner in August before he left for college, and then a few months later he wrote me a lengthy letter about how much he loved Brown and how happy he was, how it was everything he'd hoped and more. You can imagine how it felt to get that letter.</p>

<p>So fine, patuxent-- gnash your teeth! But I think the whole story typified something quite different than elitist back-room deals. </p>

<p>For me it shows the personal, non-red-tape side of Brown-- where you can get straight to the decision maker and have action within 2-3 days... The joyful, unique character of Brown, that would make a candidate pick it over other ultra high quality schools.... The welcoming atmosphere at Brown that would embrace a poor kid from 2000 miles away and allow him to intensely, joyfully belong.</p>