<p>Brown's grading system is pass/fail. That makes college seem so easy, why don't more people go there then compared to the other ivys?</p>
<p>I believe Brown is only pass/fail the first semester or maybe the first year. MIT does the same thing for freshmen, and I'm sure there are others as well. They do this to give first year students a little time to get adjusted. I'd be surprised if any college was entirely pass fail for the whole degree program. In any case, I don't see that as a big factor in the decision to apply to a particular school.</p>
<p>I think pass/fail is an option in all Brown courses, while many other universities allow students to take just one pass/fail course a semester. I doubt, though, that many students opt to get no grades all the way through Brown, because the type of student who goes there is apt to be looking towards some sort of graduate program. Brown is very selective. They are interested in students who want to explore lots of areas out of intellectual curiosity (the reason for pass/not pass options) but I think they'd pretty much try to sniff out students who want to get there and just coast.</p>
<p>Brown has been pass/fail for over 25 years.....Brown students could also fail without having it show on their transcripts....not sure that policy still holds....seems odd for an Ivy.</p>
<p>it still seems pretty wierd to me though...</p>
<p>Well Brown is a very different sort of ivy with a reputation to match.</p>
<p>Brown also as no core curriculum beyond that of your major, and that's pretty weird too.</p>
<p>I'm applying to Brown, and the prospect of being able to take my courses pass/fail or A/B/C/No Record never really came into play for me. However, I think that the school fosters the idea that learning is more important than grades, and that encourages students to challenge themselves in disciplines that they might otherwise be nervous about attempting. To quote the Admissions people:</p>
<p>"You not only have the freedom to choose the content and character of your education at Brown; you can also choose the way in which you are evaluated.</p>
<p>One grading option is the traditional letter-grading system. In this system, you will receive either an A, B, C, or NC (No Credit) for the course. No courses at Brown can be passed with a grade lower than a C. Additionally, classes in which an NC is recorded do not appear on official transcripts, they only appear on your internal records.</p>
<p>Your other option is to use the Satisfactory/No Credit grading system. Originally introduced in 1969 as part of the New Curriculum (now known as the Brown Curriculum), this system is intended to encourage you to explore subjects outside of your main interests and to promote an interdisciplinary approach to your education. Upon completing a course, you will receive either an "S," "NC," or "S with distinction." For a more thorough and insightful evaluation of a course taken S/NC, you may request a Course Performance Report, a written report on your performance from your instructor."</p>
<p>I think a lot of that (as is referenced) came out of the 1969 reevaluation of the curriculum and the steps that Brown took to ensure that its students were able to recieve a well-rounded education. As with the open curriculum, I think that a specific subset of students are more likely to apply to Brown, and therefore the opportunity is not abused (or at least not widely). It would be interesting to see how many Brown students actually failed a course as compared to students at similar institutions which do not allow for this type of grading. Without that kind of data though, I don't know if there's any way to say that students would be more likely to "coast" there than any comparable school.</p>
<p>Does it really make a difference, given grade inflation? I mean, wouldn't a P/F student at Brown be an A-/B+ student at Harvard anyway?</p>
<p>It would seem to me that a student who actually needed a P/F system to explore the world demonstrates a certain lack of maturity.</p>
<p>(that shouldn't in any way be seen as a disparagement of Brown, for students can take the majors P/F as well, as I understand it.)</p>
<p>On the basis of grading system alone, something entirely Pass/Fail is doomed for failure if it isn't tempered with other options.</p>
<p>Take, for example, UCSC. Until quite recently, the only method of grading they had was the Evaluations system. Absolutely no letter grades were offered, ever, and I'm not even sure that you could "fail" a course -- you just got a narrative evaluation from your professor/TA.</p>
<p>That created a lot of problems for students intending to go onto the graduate level, and that sort of weeding (we'll only take students who are more or less making their bachelor's their terminal degree, or are earning accomplishments outside academia) was part of the gradual discredit of the reputation of UCSC.</p>
<p>Perhaps it's something similar at Brown? (When looking purely at grading policies, of course!)</p>
<p>Snapple's and Sac's posts are the most accurate. A few other posts are not quite as precise. I have a daughter at Brown.</p>
<p>For one thing, it would be rare for someone to take all their courses Pass/Fail at Brown though conceivably you could. The pass/fail option is there if someone wants to explore something totally unfamiliar, take the risk, and not be as concerned with the grade for the record. Believe me, you CANNOT coast at Brown. The course work is challenging and demanding. Spoke to my D tonight and she has been working her tail off with many papers due this week, projects, tests, the works. There is no grade inflation. I recall one time her saying that nobody in the course got an A on a particular political science paper. She has since gotten A's on papers in that demanding course but knows how hard it is to achieve that and it is not made up of just freshmen either. She happens to have excellent grades right now at this point in time through much much hard work. One of her courses, Intro. to Engineering had no option of a letter grade and you are required to take it pass/fail (she elected grades in all courses where you CAN take a grade which is the majority of classes). I am guessing that the intro. to Engineering class is designed as Pass/Fail to have kids expore this field without the pressure of a grade (some kids might be so concerned with not doing well in this area that maybe they would not try it). Even though it is pass/fail, the standards are very high. You had to get over a certain mark on the exams in order to pass and it was high and very difficult. There is a final small group design project involving papers, design, problem solving, and they must build the project as well. She is working in the same fashion had the course been graded or if it had not been. I believe her work ethic is typical of other Brown students. This is one of the few courses where you cannot elect to get a grade. </p>
<p>My guess is she will rarely elect to use the Pass/Fail option. She is however, exercising that option on her first studio art class next semester because this is a prerequisite to many courses she hopes to explore in college if she goes into architecture and she is not as confident as an artist and wants to just take it and not think of the grade and just do it. She likes learning for learning's sake. She has no idea how she would fair in an art grade, I guess, and wanted to just take the course without that hanging over it (though did fine in this area in high school but maybe is not sure what college level art is like and wanted to just do it and not be hesitant or worry if she was good enough to do well in it). I am sure she will work in the same fashion in this course that she would have if given a grade because that is the type of student she is. She would not say, No grade? I will take it easy. She was a straight A student in high school and my guess is that she will be pulling similar grades at Brown. I think she feels a sense of accomplishment so far in that she is doing well in her courses and apparently is as prepared or as capable to do the work as her counterparts from much more prestigious high schools. Believe me, the kids at Brown are not slackers. She says they are brilliant and work hard but also know how to have fun. </p>
<p>Many Brown students go onto graduate school and I imagine she will as well. She will want to do well in college mostly because she sets high standards for herself. She has engaged in independent studies in high school and worked as hard at those as she did in regular courses. Brown welcomes this type of learner. They want kids to explore a breadth of courses and try new things. The pass/fail grade option is merely an option and my guess is it is used once in a while by students. Some likely never use that option and some might use it more than is the norm. I recall at an info. session for prospective students being told that once a student chose pass/fail for all his courses and got narrative evaluations (quite thorough) from his professors instead. He got into Yale Law School, which was quite familiar with his preparation at Brown. My own brother went to Brown ages ago, and went onto Law School as well. He has been a judge and now supervises all judges in his state. His undergraduate degree was clearly not an obstacle. I am sure he mostly had grades. </p>
<p>Brown values choices and grading options are just another facet of that. The curriculum affords choices that are responsive to the individual academic needs of students. There is a lot of flexibility and interdiscinplinary work. While there are no distribution requirements, most student's course selections do involve a wide breadth of academic areas. Individuals are given much responsibility to shape their academic studies. Academics at Brown are intense, not a breeze, as depicted in some earlier posts. It is NOT a competitive atmosphere at all. Rather the intensity is from self motivated students, which is one of the things that attracted my child to the school because she is like that. Most Brown students are like mine, who set high expectations for themselves. They do not need rules or requirements from above as they set high standards on their own. They learn more so to learn than to get the grade. So, if people here are thinking that it must be easy at Brown with all this freedom, think again. Freedom does not mean license. Freedom brings choice to create learning opportunities to meet your individual needs. </p>
<p>Also Brown students tend to be not only engaged in academic rigor but also actively engaged in extracurricular activities. I have yet to meet a Brown student who is only involved in academics. Brown provides a true liberal arts experience. Undergraduates can engage in research with professors in research assistantships, as well. </p>
<p>It is easy to make a judgement call when you hear "pass/fail" options but unless you are well versed on this type of educational setting, you might be getting an image that is not the real picture of rigor. Some like to learn for learning's sake and not just to get a grade. Grades, however, are good to have as a form of evaluation that is recognized on things like transcripts. However, you can bet that the narrative evaluation a student can receive if they opt for that instead of a letter grade, is likely more telling. I used to teach elementary school and at that time the school did not have a unified report card format and as a teacher, I could choose it and I wrote narrative evaluations four times per year on my students that were quite thorough. I also had extensive documentation of their learning. Those report cards were loved by parents and gave a much more accurate picture than a list of grades ever could. I have taught at several colleges that utilize narrative evaluations where letter grades are an additional option and I put a great deal into writing those. It is just that the majority of folks are more aware of educational institutions where grades rule and there is not a lot of individualization and personalization. But there are other ways of learning, documenting, and evaluating.</p>
<p>I agree - and I think Brown students, like students at high quality institutions elsewhere, can be expected to use good judgment. They wouldn't have gotten into Brown otherwise. It really is a non-issue, I think.</p>
<p>When I think about it....looking at the OP subject heading: "Brown is pass/fail, why don't more people apply?"....I now am thinking, what do you mean by "more people"...more than what? more than apply now? more than at other Ivies? I do not have the numbers to compare the total number of applicants at Brown to the total number at another Ivy but plenty of folks apply to Brown. Last year, the admit rate was 15% I believe....that sure leaves a whole lot of folks who applied who did not get in. I don't think they are hurtin' for numbers. </p>
<p>As well, come to think of it....using the factor that pass/fail is an option you can elect for one or more courses if you so choose at Brown....I am not sure my child even KNEW that little fact or not when she applied. I don't think she did and if she did, it surely never arose as a reason she applied. She knew about the open curriculum, wide choices, independent study options and self motivated students. Those things were appealing. Pass/fail was not a big point if a point at all.</p>
<p>Mini, soozie; yes...</p>
<p>But the thing is, for some students the pass fail option, even for a great many courses (hypothetically,) is NOT AT ALL irresponsible. What if you are not worried about grad school and really into learning for learning 's sake and you'd just rather not have any stress about grades? What if you are in an artistic field where grades might be very subjective anyhow? I think that taking a bunch of courses C/NC could be a legitimate choice for some people.</p>
<p>I took a few "Not-My-Usual-Cup-Of-Tea" courses C/NC initially, then I changed to a letter grade when I realized I <em>could</em> do well in the class. That is how most people use the option, as a safety valve for experimentation. A pre-med can take studio art or poetry and not worry about it screwing up a transcript. A hisotry person can take physics and not have to shoot for an A, but just pass the class and be enriched. A person can take a fifth class for C/NC so as not to be too overwhelmed with a heavy course load. All this is typical.</p>
<p>There were some 'urban legends' about people taking every course C/NC-- this may have happened, but I didn't know anyone personally who did that.</p>
<p>The kind of kid Brown admits would not abuse this system. If a Brown student took everything C/NC, the University would assume they had a good reason. I guarantee you it would not be slacking-- it would be caring for an ill parent, writing the great american novel, following a personal philosophy of non-competition, or some other thoughtful, worthy reason.</p>
<p>This apparent lax attitude is the great thing about Brown. When noone is checking up you are really asked to take accountability for the selection of your classes and their worth & meaning to you. Most people are so passionate about what they take that the grade really isn't the major motivation anyhow.</p>
<p>SBMom, thanks for your post. Given that you went to Brown, it is best to hear from someone like you. Your description is my sense as well and is descriptive of my own child, a current Brown student. The more I think about it, I can see why when all other aspects of her application might have met the requirements, this aspect of her learning style may have been picked up on (not sure how but maybe elements in the GC's report and the various indep. studies she chose to do to challenge herself beyond the school's curriculum and also one to explore a field of interest she might go into in college....). In any case, I now realize that whether it was the school who picked her or her picking the school, it is a good fit in this particular aspect. What some who posted above were implying was that if a course was pass/fail, a kid could breeze through. But the point is, that is not the type of student at Brown. I cannot imagine my child thinking, "this Engineering course is pass/fail, I can do minimal work." in a million years. She is working hard at that course and in the same way she would have had it been given a grade. As I mentioned earlier, that course was designated pass/fail by the school, not her. But the course she is choosing to take pass/fail, an introductory studio art course, fits your description of taking a course she wants to try out and not be concerned about the grade as much as taking it to explore art, where perhaps she has less confidence as an artist at this point until she has this one course under her belt. She has taken many HS art courses but would not describe herself as an artist but this is one aspect of her intended major and she is into it but may yet be unsure as to her skill on a college level until she tries it out. I am sure if there was no pass/fail option, she would still have taken the course but she figured she would sign up for it under this option which eases the exploration without grades hanging over her head. My feeling is she will do just fine with it and did not need that option but with it there, and the fact that it does make her more apt to take risks with it, why not. I think overall, she has to feel some confidence she can do well at Brown now that she has been getting such good grades which has excited her to learn that it was possible there for someone like herself coming from her background. If she chooses her first art course to be pass/fail, it is not a bad thing but rather a way to navigate newer territory. </p>
<p>I very much agree with you that the type of student at Brown, including herself, is not so worried about being accountable to some higher up as they are to themselves and their own challenges. They are a self motivated lot. They may not need someone to tell them to take a wide breadth of courses but the deans there told the parents that they find that the students end up doing "distribution" naturally in their course selections. I think it is rather cool to be in charge of your own learning and certainly something that beats high school!</p>
<p>Susan</p>
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<p>What if you are not worried about grad school and really into learning for learning 's sake and you'd just rather not have any stress about grades? </p>
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<p>Fair enough ... but between Med, Dental, Law, Masters in Science, Masters in Arts and PhDs I bet a large percentage of kids at Brown are headed to grad school ... and for them a few P/F here and there are fine but taking lots of them would hurt their chances of getting into grad school.</p>
<p>Similarily many high profile jobs use GPAs a big part of their initial hiring process ... for example, consulting, wall street, lots of firms management training programs use GPAs heavily ... again I would think having a few P/F would be fine but if a student is shooting for these types of jobs they need a trail of grades.</p>
<p>foreign language is required in most top schools, but since Brown has no core cirricullum, I wouldn't be forced to take a foreign language class?
by the way, I am really bad with foreign language (spanish), so I am looking for a way not to take it.</p>
<p>According to Brown's website, if you have C in foreign language, you must be an awesome hockey player to be accepted into Brown.</p>
<p>If you're going to go to Brown, then NO. You are not required to take foreign language!!!! Unless you want to go abroad... If you really want to skip foreign language, make sure that you're not applying to LACs with core cirriculum- many require foreign language for graduation (can be exempted through placement exams and SAT IIs)</p>
<p>But maybe you could try a NEW language instead. Foreign languages at college level is very different from high school and I actually like the college system better- more exploration, higher level of motivation.... Spanish isn't the only language out here- try Arabic, Chinese or Italian or Russian!</p>
<p>They do like Hockey at Brown but that is obviously a joke...</p>
<p>Brown does not have any requirements. People don't abuse the course selection leeway any more than they abuse the C/NC option.</p>
<p>Brown wants passionate learners. The idea is to restrict these passionate learners as little as possible, not to create a safe haven for slackers. </p>
<p>Brown feels a passionate learner should not have to slog through classes that do not interest him at the expense of other areas that are compelling & exciting. Most people don't choose Brown because of a "You don't have to do XYZ...." but because of a "You <em>get</em> to do XYZ...."</p>
<p>Brown is really different than any other school in America, which is why I'm applying if I don't get into Penn ED.</p>