Hello, I am an international applicant from India and I wish to apply ED to either Brown or Amherst College. I really like the artsy feel and the variety of options available at Brown. That said, I realise that Brown is not need-blind for internationals. This prompts me to look at amherst (where i can to get a lot of aid ). However, my parents have been persuading me to apply to an ivy as an lac seems to be a risky/experimental to them. I wish to eventually enter into academia for economics /public policy/international relations. Would going to an ivy be worth the expense?
If you want to go to grad school, a top liberal arts college like amherst is an excellent choice. While the same may not be true for LACs below the top 20, top grad schools, the government, and prestigious employers (think Goldman Sachs and Google) know the value and ability of Amherst students. In some ways amherst may be better because there are more opportunities for undergrad research (no grad students to compete with), superior professor recommendations (you make real friendships with your professors), and superior teaching (professors are there to teach, not research) that leads to better understanding of the material. Unless you are a highly academically advanced applicant (e.g. you are able to take 300 level classes as a freshman) Ivies hardly offer anytning better in terms f your stated goals. Let me know if you have more questions.
Thanks hallow for your response!
A few concerns
- Can I take graduate-level econ courses at Umass Amherst via the consortium? Can i take courses in public policy/ development studies?
- More research opportunities- in the social sciences?
- Indians at Amherst?
- Do corporate houses provide on-campus recruitment at amherst?
Thanks again!
- Yes they permit it. However UMASS econ is heterodox so you might be better off taking an independent study kf graduate level textbooks (preferably MWG) with Amherst professors. There are not development/public policy majors but there are courses related to those fields. If you want to go into grad school for these things though, taking undergrad courses in them is not that important or useful.
- More research opportunities in general but yes also in the social sciences.
- There are a healthy number of Indians at Amherst. Don't worry about social/ethnic exclusion
- Yes. Places like JP Morgan and Bain recruit on campus.
In addition, also consider the fact that as a grad student, you will be making only enough to subside and maybe pay back interest payments on loans (if you go to a top school with a large stipend) for at minimum 5 years. Thus, unless you can get brown to give you aid, there is little reason why you should go as it’ll be more expensive and you won’t be able to start earning significant amounts of money until your thirties.
I can’t imagine what Brown would give you for undergrad that Amherst would not, and as pointed out above me, Amherst can offer you a lot that Brown can’t.
Good luck!
Amherst is a very diverse campus, far more so than Brown. There is a large Indian population at UMass and in the local area; but like the other poster said, I wouldn’t worry too much about exclusion. Amherst is a great school, with better outcomes than every Ivy (esp for pre-med) so I would for sure consider applying here.
Social Science research within the 5 college mostly happens at Amherst College, so it’s the perfect part of the consortium if you’re interested in that. Corporations don’t recruit here as much as they do at other top LACs due to the social justice aspect of campus. However, it’s very easy to get involved with finance after Amherst, so don’t worry.
^I’m a huge fan of AC, but I’m a little skeptical; so, what’s the basis for your contention that it has better outcomes than every Ivy?
“Would going to any Ivy be worth the expense?”
I find these types of questions interesting, particularly if restructured based upon actual metrics: “Would going to a college with lower average SAT scores be worth the expense?” Well, if lower SAT scores are something you are seeking, I suppose it could be.
(Source for SAT scores: USNWR Best Colleges, 2015 Edition. Amherst: 1350-1530; Brown: 1330-1540.)
@merc81 - your data doesn’t do a very good job of supporting your hypothesis
1540 is higher than 1530
Sure, 1330 is lower than 1350 but I see these numbers as very close to a push
Brown and Amherst are probably pretty even academically.
Brown has the Ivy League cache and is more known outside of the Northeast, but I don’t think that is enough of an edge to justify paying a lot more money to attend it.
If you have top grades, then you should consider going to IIT, as many IIT grads find their way into top US grad programs and to careers with major US firms. A top LAC vs. Ivy is also a question of personal fit and disposition. If you are sitting overseas this may be a difficult quality to understand. The student body at AC or the other top NESCAC schools will overlap academically with the student body at the ivies in terms of academic zeal and interest, but may often be more quirky and less career oriented. If your goal is to attend grad school in social sciences and you are going to work very hard in undergrad, honestly you could go anywhere and most likely get accepted at a top political science program at a major grad school. A top LAC is very much a lifestyle choice and academically its a much more intimate setting, where as prior posters have correctly indicated you will have more direct interaction with professors and have access to do personal research. Both schools are top notch, certainly the ivies are better known internationally, but is your school choice based on your personal future goals or to please your parents?
@CHD2013: I was essentially writing a reaction to the presumption of Brown being clearly superior, but perhaps not worth the price. Brown has a 5 point lower inferred SAT average than Amhert. Yes, that means the scores of the two schools are equivalent by any reasonable standard. But if the point were pressed, I’d say it’s Brown that has the – slightly – tougher claim to greater academic consistency among its students in a comparison between the schools.
@Regulus7 IITs are primarily engineering institutes. They have great STEM courses but lack in other areas. I am planning to opt for economics and mathematics. Can anyone elaborate on these majors? Are these rigorous enough to facilitate transition to grad school without any post-baccalaureate/ Masters program? do Amherst students go for international agencies affiliated to the U.N. or policy-making bodies?
Thanks @hallowedelegy . I was under the impression that I could use the consortium for very-specific upper level classes.
@Regulus7 My parents aren’t pushing me to Brown. They just want to make sure that I don’t compromise on any grounds because of financed. They want to make sure if a degree from a top LAC ( an alien concept in India) works well in grad school admissions or possibly the corporate sector. That said, yes I want to take their concerns/ opinions into consideration because they are the ones paying and sending their only son overseas to enable him to fulfil his academic goals (and thats a lot on the part of someone who belongs to a collectivist, family-oriented culture)
Could anyone compare Columbia as well? (Full pay- purely on the basis of academic grounds/ education for grad school)
OP, you wouldn’t be compromising anything in terms of academic quality – quality of teaching, class sizes, access to professors, etc.
The only potential sacrifice would be this: Brown will offer more majors and courses than Amherst will.
But that is essentially a “university vs. LAC” issue, and it is nearly a constant: universities tend to offer more courses and majors than LACs do.
But class for class, the quality will likely be quite similar.
You mentioned working in a foreign service or policy-making body. If you are truly interested in that, I suggest that you take a look at Georgetown University in addition to Amherst and Brown. Georgetown is known for its immensely strong Foreign Service program.
If you are gearing yourself toward graduate school in the social sciences, with an academic career goal in the USA, then frankly the top LACs are a better option than the ivies. If you do some research you will see that schools like Reed in portland Oregon matriculate more future PhDs than all the ivies on a proportional graduates basis. Take a look at this survey, its a few years old but still very valid…
http://www.thecollegesolution.com/the-colleges-where-phds-get-their-start/
So although the Ivies have a dominant perception of quality overseas, here in the USA, however, if your personal goal is an academic teaching/research career than going to a top LAC is statistically a better bet than an ivy. Explain that to your parents.
Amherst sends a lot of people on to graduate scale (as a percent of their overall enrollment) - a lot of LAC’s do. It is well-regarded by graduate schools.
You might be interested in these resources:
- NSF article detailing the universities and colleges that send the most students onto get doctorates in science. About 1/2 of the top 50 are LACs:
http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf13323/
- Reed also provides a shorter list which ranks schools by the percentages of students who go onto get doctoral degrees in a variety of disciplines:
I would still apply to IITs because for economics grad school, you don’t have to have an econ major. Having intermediate micro, macro, and econometrics is enough. What econ grad schools are looking for are strong math skills and research potential. IITs would be a great signal of technical ability. Nevertheless, Amherst econ and math will prepare you for what’s needed in grad school. Also, the consortium won’t provide good upper level econ classes. In fact, Amherst provides the most niche upper level econ classes in the consortium, excluding heterodox courses. what amherst lacks are niche areas of study, not niche classes in popular areas of study.