<p>My son has been accepted to both Brown and Williams. He has never visited either school, but will visit both in April before making a final decision. His interests lie in physics, math and computer science.</p>
<p>Which school would likely be a better fit? What specific questions might he ask while visiting to make the distinction between these choices clearer?</p>
<p>Congrats–both fabulous schools! I’ll bet he’ll know after he visits–don’t worry, you can’t lose!</p>
<p>They are both excellent schools, but I also bet he’ll figure out which he prefers when he visits. They are just very different places – one is small and rural, the other midsize and urban. If he wants to spend his Saturdays hiking or skiing, then go to Williams. </p>
<p>I don’t know much about Williams’ curriculum, but he should compare Brown’s open curriculum to any requirements that Williams has and decide which system he prefers. Brown’s physics and computer science programs are excellent, but its pure math department is not as strong, so if that’s where his interest lies he should look closely at those departments at both schools. Brown has lots of research opportunities, so that’s another aspect to look into.</p>
<p>We need to know a lot more about your son and his interests/likes/dislikes to help anymore.</p>
<p>My son has same choice (plus Wesleyan, Vassar, Macalester and Carleton – waitlisted at Amherst), but different interests. He’s into theater (all aspects) and creative writing and probably film, though still quite strong in math and science (e.g., Calculus BC as a junior – got a 5 on the AP test). He is not at all into sports, hates pretentiousness, and was put on this earth to make people laugh. (Think stand-up, comedy writing, etc.) He sings in youth choir, school choir and an a capella group. He’s taking AP Music Theory and likes what he’s learning. A lot.</p>
<p>We’re still waiting on Williams’ financial aid offer; Brown’s is very generous (and includes no loans – unlike the four others). There are ways in which this seems like a no-brainer (Brown), except that it might be a little big for him. He will have an older sibling there, too, which is perhaps both a liability AND an asset. (Thoughts on that?) He is definitely drawn to an open curriculum, but would do fine without, I think. He wants to become a better and better writer. Not sure how he’s feeling about rural versus urban setting. He has visited all but Carleton and Macalester. He’s worried that Vassar is too artsy and that Williams is too preppy/jocky (also that theater program is currently too small and uneven.) He would be third generation Williams (though not his parents, a grandparent and an aunt), which is not a reason to choose a school, but can feel like pressure nevertheless.</p>
<p>Obviously, these are all great schools, and we feel an embarrassment of riches. Obviously, there’s a lot to be said for graduating debt-free.</p>
<p>Given his interests, what thoughts might some of you have for him to consider?</p>
<p>Anyone gone to the same school as a sibling?</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>Bottom line: he should visit both and preferably spend the night, attend some classes. There are significant differences in size, setting and philosophy: Williams is academically rigorous and has distribution requirements, Brown is more free-wheeling (can be good, can be not so good, depending on the individual-arguably a liberal arts graduate should have a rounded exposure to the arts and sciences). Williams has more than double the per student endowment, not sure if that currently affects things like class sizes, faculty cuts, but bears investigation.</p>
<p>Competition was brutal this year; I think my son was admitted to Brown because he seems to be a perfect fit for a school that prides itself on its open curriculum. Of course, you have to be self-directed to make the most of such resources. In my son’s transcripts and his essays he showed himself to have, with his counselor’s permission, basically shredded his high school’s rulebook on what was permitted, graduating in 3 years, skipping required prerequisites, taking his first college class as a freshman rather than as a junior, taking 3 AP classes sophomore year (plus a college class) when the maximum allowed was one, and then pulling this crazy stunt where took 8 APs as a sophomore, 4 of them on self-studied subjects. I have to think it was his crazy obsession with self-directed learning, not just his stats, that got him over the acceptance threshold.</p>
<p>Yet from a social standpoint, I wonder if Williams or Amherst isn’t a better fit because of size. I have no doubt he’ll do fine in his classes wherever he goes, but he might be more inclined to try a wider array of ECs at a smaller school because his friends and dorm mates will already be involved; it could take him a long long time to cross campus and try something different with a bunch of strangers – he’d probably consider it, then get distracted with something interesting in the immediate vicinity. </p>
<p>The folks on the Williams boards also say that it’s easier to get involved in research projects at an LAC since the grad students don’t hog the best choices. Any thoughts?</p>
<p>Bedford, my son was also accepted at UIUC, our state flagship, which has one of the top computer science programs in the country (my son’s intended major). His older brother plans to head there for graduate school, so we considered the possibility of them both living together. It could be a good idea for them to be together, but the older one is the extrovert who tends to dominate (my younger son has learned to keep quiet and toss out the occasional wry zinger to keep Big Bro in his place). I think in my son’s case, it would be better to not be in his brother’s shadow, but this will vary depending on the nature of each pair of siblings.</p>
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<p>His top interests are computer science, physics and math, in that order. I think he prefers applied math to the heavily theoretical. I seem to recall that this was Brown’s focus? (forgive me, we did a lot of reading over the last year and after awhile it starts to blend together a bit).</p>
<p>My son absorbs math and physics very very quickly, usually in a single pass without repetition. He exhausted his high school’s math curriculum by the end of sophomore year, so having grad classes to grow into could be a big plus. On the other hand, he could just grow outwards rather than upwards and decide to do something silly like triple major in all three of these fields while snacking on the liberal arts curriculum as he moves along.</p>
<p>I think I also read something about Brown offering a 5-year master’s degree. If true, how does this work?</p>
<p>I didn’t consider Williams so I can’t really talk about that school or offer much of a comparison (though I seem to remember a friend of mine said their physics program was very good). I can talk about Brown math and CS, though.</p>
<p>Brown CS is a very strong program. The department offers an AB (Bachelor of Arts) and an ScB (Bachelor of Science, requiring more courses and a senior project or thesis), as well as numerous joint concentrations (for example, I am a Mathematics-Computer Science concentrator). Some parts of the department are in flux (some of the low level theory courses are changing, and the department has been light on AI courses recently), but it is quite varied. The intro and intermediate courses give a very solid overview of computer science and programming - there are 3 intro sequences based on one’s interest and prior experience, and all three are great in their own regard. These cover programming (generally in Java, Racket, or both) and theory (substantial algorithms work well beyond the AP exam), so it’s incredibly rare that a student skips the intro sequences entirely. 31 is an intro to computer engineering and systems, and as far as we can tell, it’s unique among colleges (most focus only on systems). It gives exposure to computer architecture, compilers, and operating systems through Assembly Language. 32 is the software engineering course, which involves substantial (some students spend 25+ hours a week) programming, as well as design patterns and techniques. The theory courses are in flux but will cover probability, statistics, and computational theory.</p>
<p>This itself is a very solid background, and then there are numerous upper level courses to further one’s knowledge. Independent studies and graduate courses are common too when the undergrad courses are insufficient for one’s needs. Job prospects are very good, with much of this year’s graduating class going to Microsoft or Google after graduation. Professors are mostly accessible (unfortunately, there are always exceptions), and the incredible TA program provides numerous hours of support for students.</p>
<p>Pure math at Brown, as mentioned above, doesn’t have the same reputation. Its reputation is somewhat skewed - grad students teach many of the low level courses, and they are often hard to learn from. Additionally, good grades in BC calc don’t seem to imply success in higher mathematics; many people decide that pure math is not for them - high school calculus classes are much closer to applied math in nature. There are several great professors in the department, and several poor professors; I’m yet to be incredibly impressed by one of my professors, but several have been alright. The standard AB math requirements are very loose (only Abstract Algebra I is required, though that’s admittedly a sort of weed-out course), while students considering grad school have a list of highly recommended courses. I feel that the department is best for those who come in at a high level and can sample grad courses early - those are the students who seem to like the department best.</p>
<p>Edit: Brown’s Applied Math is supposed to be good, though those in the pure math department who have taken classes in it, myself included, are generally unimpressed.</p>
<p>Brown offers a 5-year masters in CS, which several of my friends are doing. If money weren’t an issue, I’d consider it as well, although I’m beginning to believe that my heart lies more in Classics and Math.</p>
<p>@bedford: Your son sounds a lot like some people I knew at Brown – which is not that surprising, since I was something of a theatre kid (I did tech stuff, but my friends did everything). Although I think that Brown is uniquely suited for someone like your son – someone with diverse academic interests, a passion for the performing arts, and a penchant for happiness – I have to admit that I think he would be genuinely happy with most or all of his fantastic options. </p>
<p>Some things to think about (or, me selling Brown):</p>
<p>When it comes to the performing arts (and that includes comedy), Brown is an embarrasment of riches. And I should know – within the realm of theatre (plays/musicals/staged-readings), I saw 25-30 shows each year, and I could have seen a lot more. I simply don’t know of any peer school (Yale, maybe?) with the sheer quantity of performing arts opportunities that Brown has. And for a performer more opportunities translates into a better chance of finding something to work on that suits you – in terms of talent level needed, commitment, time, etc. It also means a dedicated community that’s used to attending shows on a regular basis.</p>
<p>Just what are we talking about? For theatre, AmbitiousMind provides a lot of info in this thread: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/brown-university/899192-brown-theater.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/brown-university/899192-brown-theater.html</a> . I think a cappella was covered in another recent thread, which I’m having trouble finding, but suffice it to say that Brown claims (and from what I can tell, it’s right) to have more a cappella groups per capita (and I would think also on an absolute basis) than any other college in the country. And the groups are fantastic. From what I can tell, comedy groups have seen a recent jump in number and popularity, although I think that was starting to happen by the time I left – hopefully someone more current can shine a light on that. There are some very talented funny people at Brown – one of my good friends from Brown, the funniest person I know, performs occasionally as part of a two-person improv group, and they can keep an audience in hysterics for an hour straight.</p>
<p>I’m part of a small non-profit that maintains a list of Brown’s performing arts groups here: [Open</a> Jar Foundation | Performing Arts at Brown](<a href=“http://www.openjar.org/performing-arts-at-brown]Open”>http://www.openjar.org/performing-arts-at-brown) .</p>
<p>Oh, two more things:</p>
<ul>
<li><p>I think Dad2 is right that a visit will tell a lot. As to the question of breadth of exposure, though, I think there’s little in the way of evidence that students in an open curriculum end up being exposed to a narrower range of subjects – in my experience, quite the opposite is true. So as to avoid hijacking this thread, though, I’ll leave it at that.</p></li>
<li><p>@bedford: My roommate at Brown overlapped for a year with his sister (she was a freshman when we were seniors). It was great, because his sister got to benefit from all of our knowledge of how things worked, and she got to bring her friends to cool upperclassman parties, but she had her own completely separate group of friends and life. So, that’s at least anecdotal support for the idea that it can be a good thing :)</p></li>
</ul>
<p>These schools are almost the same, but I think you should go with Brown.</p>