Brown PLME, Harvard, Yale or full-ride?

Parents Forum
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<h2>I posted on the Medical School/ pre-med forum, but realize this one is more frequented.</h2>

<p>D has this decision to make and has no idea which to choose. Can you help? </p>

<p>We are lower income and will have two in school the next two years. With H/Y FA offers, our first year cost is four figures - we can afford. Brown is 10K higher (cannot as easily afford), but if chosen, we will try to negotiate. In two years when older child graduates, what will happen to FA, especially Brown's if they were pressured to match H/Y with no H/Y at that point for leverage? She's also got two full-rides: one is at state flagship that she loves and the other at a T20 she ended up not liking. Both of these have world travel included. The flagship would allow her to bank outside scholarships - she has 15K already and just getting started, but it keeps her in a similar environment - comfortable but not much stretching of her horizons, especially considering her planned career. </p>

<p>D wants to study cultural/social/medical anthropology and global health along with medical school pre-reqs. She's obviously an excellent student but math and science take her more work than other subjects. How worried should we/she be about Science weed-out classes at the various schools?</p>

<p>Her stats are great (800V, 740M, 800W, 4.0uw, 12APs), but she's coming from a large, rural, non-competitive public in the South. S is at Dartmouth and has found the competition much tougher than he expected - and he wasn't expecting a cakewalk. H & I are concerned about her maintaining a high GPA from H/Y to compete for medical school acceptance if she doesn't take PLME. Will she have to give up a great deal of social life and will the added pressure diminish her college experience? Might she end up with lower tier medical school choices? Do top medical schools take a lower GPA from an HYP as compared to a T20 school or a state flagship? </p>

<p>She's visiting Harvard and Brown in a few weeks. She's been to Brown in the summertime, but never to Harvard. We're hoping to arrange a trip to Yale. She visited there this summer, too and it was just ho-hum. (Princeton was her favorite but she was waitlisted there.)</p>

<p>She is concerned with medical school cost as she's expecting to work for a non-profit. H & I have always avoided debt and our kids have bought in. She wants to be as unencumbered as possible in order to work where she feels most needed without regard to compensation. I realize how idealistic this sounds and do understand that my D is but 17. :)</p>

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<p>No they do not. It is all about MCAT and GPA</p>

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<p>GALM…Congrats to your daughter!</p>

<p>Here are a couple threads one from Curm and the other Vig180 that may be helpful as your daughter goes through her decision process.</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/660178-results-choosing-full-ride-state-school-scholarship.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/660178-results-choosing-full-ride-state-school-scholarship.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/295029-very-happy-rhodes.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/295029-very-happy-rhodes.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>One thing to keep in mind for med school cost management is programs like the National Health Service Corps, perfect for those graduating from med school who are interested in public-service placements. Although you are limited to residencies in primary care fields or unde-served areas, there are loan repayment programs that can be quite generous. The VAST majority of med students incur some type of debt, but a good thing to know about it is that med school debt is much much better debt to incur than, say, law school debt, since doctors (especially if willing to work in under-served areas) are highly unlikely to be unemployed, ever. If your D is committed to med school and is worried about costs if she goes in to a less well compensated medical specialty, looking to something like this could be a very good option.</p>

<p>[Loan</a> Repayment - National Health Service Corps](<a href=“http://nhsc.hrsa.gov/loanrepayment/]Loan”>Loan Repayment | NHSC)</p>

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<p>“H & I are concerned about her maintaining a high GPA from H/Y to compete for medical school acceptance if she doesn’t take PLME.”</p>

<p>I don’t think she ought to be concerned about this. H/Y aren’t admitting kids who can’t hack it. I don’t know anyone at either school who was committed to going to medical school, made a good-faith effort and could not get in anywhere. Going to a “top tier” medical school is not a big deal the way it is for law school.</p>

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<p>^ agree with Hanna.</p>

<p>GALM: At the end of the day, I hope she goes to the school where she really feels she belongs and that the financial aspect works out as well. Sending good vibes!!!</p>

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<p>Learning - I have previously read both threads and absolutely appreciate their value. Thank you for linking them. Vig180’s undergrad scholarship is the one D has won - I communicated with him last year. (I should let him know.) From what we can tell, it is all that he describes and that is part of what is making her choice so tough! She has been invited to events this spring as if she’s already a fellow. She will soon attend an awards luncheon honoring one of her favorite hero/authors.</p>

<p>D is away for a week and has decided not to think about this decision during the program she’s attending. H and I are left to practice empty-nesting, talk it to death, argue about it, research, and pinch ourselves! He wants to change his name and take one of the offers she turns down!</p>

<p>Thank you other posters. Your comments and insight are also helpful.</p>

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<p>Is the PLME still a 7 year program? If so, there will be a savings of one undergraduate year. On the other hand, if she is interested in medicine, what is the cost of going to med school at Brown versus an in-state medical school? The savings of one undergraduate year might be off-set by the tuition at a private vs. in-state public.</p>

<p>There really is something nice about knowing you are already in at a med school, though. It takes off a great deal of stress. And at least back in the day, there were also specific research opportunities and money during the summer for 7-year med kids as well, but I don’t know what it is like now.</p>

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<p>“He wants to change his name and take one of the offers she turns down!”</p>

<p>My dad said the same thing! I showed him the Stanford envelope (that said “Congratulations!” on the outside) and he hugged me and said, “I want to go! I want to go!”</p>

<p>PLME is an 8-year program, but I have known people who did it in 7 years. It is not intended to accelerate the degrees.</p>

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<p>The good thing about PLME is that you are already accepted into medical school and don’t have to run the risk of not getting in if D chooses to attend somewhere other than Brown. The negative aspects are that you are locked into a career at age 17 (how many people want to do they same thing at age 23 as age 17?) and, if you don’t change your career goal, you are locked into Brown Medical School. Brown Med is fine but it is not in the same league as Harvard, Johns Hopkins, Penn, etc. Your training will be mostly at Rhode Island Hospital–which is generally not in the top 100 hospitals in the US. Certainly it is no Mass General or Johns Hopkins Hospital.</p>

<p>I guess that I am more of a risk taker but if my daughter got into both Harvard and Yale–I would think she would aspire to also go to a top medical school. And if she changed her mind about her career goals–you can do a lot with a degree from Harvard or Yale. Not that Brown is bad–it certainly isn’t but, let’s face it, Havard and Yale win most of the cross-admit battles with Brown.</p>

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<p>Of course, for someone really interested in going to medical school, Brown medical school is a lot better than not getting into any medical school, which is the fate of most pre-med students.</p>

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<p>Son also was in the med school app cycle this time around. He graduated from an ivy and is now graduating from one of our state’s local flagships with dual degrees in biochem and micro and genetics (ivy degree econ).</p>

<p>He had hoped to go into medicine/science but did not want to lock himself in so he opted out of one of his choices for that very reason. He had done enough research about med schools that he knew attending a top tier med school was not as important as attending at top law school. With that in mind he picked his undergrad which would give him the best all around education where he fit and knew he would really be challenged and grow as a person.</p>

<p>Finances also played a large role, HUGE actually. He has been interviewed and accepted at some med schools (some top 5, but is choosing again where he best fits) and along the way he met students from all kinds of schools. The ones that have done well are those were they loved their school and took advantage of every opportunity that school provided.</p>

<p>He loves, loves his 4 years at his first school (your daughter’s 1st choice OP) and it has changed him in so many ways. This past year has been marking time for him, and he saw how very different his life would have been had he opted for to attend the state option. He has enjoyed learning new subjects (also ivy does NOT offer those 3 majors which he is currently finishing up), one of his reasons for taking the gap year. That and not wanting to do the apps/interviews/MCAT while finishing his senior thesis and his senior year…he was enjoying himself too much!!</p>

<p>So my advice, tell her to choose based on her gut and her heart…not prestige, not what could be, but where she believes she will be challenged academically, supported, somewhere her hopes and dreams are fostered and they help her unfold as a person. Tell her to look around and really observe and talk with other students…can she be their peers, their friends?</p>

<p>Son talks to his group sevral times a day and they are all scattered all over the world. His social life is busier now that it was in high school and he was a social butterfly! But now his friendships and connections really show who he is as a person and he has made life-long friends.</p>

<p>She doesn’t have to pick her career now. She has to pick a home for the next 4 years where she will grow and they will help her focus her goals and dreams.</p>

<p>And Congrats on all the acceptances.</p>

<p>Kat
ps where is her full-ride at, what state school as that can make a difference?</p>

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<p>Here’s another thread started last spring by a student who opted for the full ride: <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/905843-top-student-3rd-tier-school-four-years-later.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/905843-top-student-3rd-tier-school-four-years-later.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>You need to talk to the career office and get the data about the HYP applicants data. At DD’s college (MIT) the career office lists clearly that lower MIT GPA doesn’t affect applicant chances at top medical schools. </p>

<p>ACCEPTANCE RATE<br>
National Rate 46%
MIT Undergraduate (UG) Rate 84.8% </p>

<p>GPA Undergraduate Applicants<br>
Accepted Mean 3.73/4.0*
Range of Acceptances 3.28-4.0*</p>

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<p>Brown Alum of Brown’s undergrad, and PLME program, and child at Brown now as a premed. (went even though did not get into PLME);
Some things to consider:
Tuition costs are real concern, but undergrad less of a differnce in the long run, except that if free ride, are you able to “sock away” difference to apply toward Med tuition (usually much more $).
Brown tends to work with the PLME students that need financial aid to make sure they don’t “use up” the best loans as undergrad, so can have them for med school. (seperate undergrad vs med school will have you get the FISL etc undergrad, and use up elligliblity before grad school). Brown Med school is quite a bit more expensive than say a in state tuition, but they actually sometimes give scholarship to PLME for some of the med school part (very unusual to get scholarships in med school unless they are Public Health, Underserved or Armed forces ones. Since she is interested in underserved populations that might be an option. BUT lots of students start out saying that and then just go where the money/earnings are!!) Where you go to medical school can influence where you can get into residencies, but Brown has quite a prestigious name for that, maybe not quite to Harvard etc, but you have to get into Harvard med first! (not likely from a state school unless you do some ground breaking research, top of class and stellar MCATs = grind through undergrad. Don’t you want her to have some of the FUN undergrad experience??? </p>

<p>Browns PLMEs have a bit of extra help at Brown to make sure they do well in premed there. of course are the “cream of the crop” re academic skills to start. Most stay top students despite that “THEY DON’T HAVE TO!” Ie can enjoy their undergrad experience more than most premeds. </p>

<p>AND if she does well at Brown in PLME, what Brown won’t tell her/you, is that she is NOT obligated to go to BROWN MED. She can take MCATs, will have all the standard premed recs done as a PLME, (even if she want to major in International relations or Semiotics or whatever, due to BRown’s open curriculum. If she decides that she doesn’t want to even go to med school, she can “drop out” of PLME and just be a “regular IVY grad”. (That is really rare, as Brown is trying to do a good job making sure the kids they accept as PLME are fairly certain to stay the course, otherwise would mess the whole process up, but it is up to the student. There is no binding contract or anything like that. If the student indicates that they might be looking elsewhere, (say due to family finances and needing instate Med School tuition) they may defer the students spot in Med school part for a year, just because they really do need to know entering slot numbers. </p>

<p>Going to Brown, GPA can be a bit lower to MED school, esp if coming back to South, in state. Brown is a much friendlier premed school experience than many/most. (Not easier, the courses are really tough, but if she was accepted into PLME, she can hack it) but all the PLME students help there be a “we’re all in this together” help each other premed atmosphere, not a “do better, competition” premed atmosphere. That is a BIG plus in my mind.</p>

<p>If she wants to go into a primary care field of medicine, not as important where you go to med school (less competitive residencies) but loan burden can be an issue. Still do-able with Brown. </p>

<p>Hope these thoughts help</p>

<p>Been there, done that!</p>

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<p>As someone who went to Brown undergrad, is now at Penn Med, and is very familiar with the academic offerings at Harvard and Yale through friends, I would strongly advise against going to PLME. I’ve never seen such a waste as my friends who ended up de facto stuck in Brown Med (a downright awful medical school, comparatively speaking) while the rest of us went to places like Harvard, UCSF, Johns Hopkins, and Penn. Plus, Harvard and Yale hand out record amounts of financial aid nowadays. </p>

<p>Your D is very fortunate to have this choice; I would implore you to push her towards Harvard or Yale. There is no guarantee that she’ll EVER get into a place like that again. Not only that, but the volunteer, research, and general pre-med opportunities at those places are far superior. If you or your D want to PM me for more specific questions, I would LOVE to help you out.</p>

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<p>You all have given excellent perspectives and insight. While I’m on here asking and researching, I do realize that her visits will weigh the heaviest in her decision. I also realize she has no bad or wrong choice, which is reassuring. </p>

<p>katwkittens - D’s state full-ride is linked above in learninginprog’s earlier post. Vig180 describes it well. Not necessarily important, but Vig was a superstar among superstars at this school. Not all alumni fellows that we met are blazing trails, but many are. And surprisingly, many more are than at T20 similar scholarship. D learned why at their weekend - weak networking: during undergrad years and beyond.</p>

<p>She and H&I are realizing how important networking will be for her especially if she ends up doing what she plans. At her request, we try to read books behind her about this work even though we have a hard time keeping up with her voracious pace :). We’ve come to realize that the college network that she develops will be as important as the education itself, maybe more so.</p>

<p>And yes, we realize all this could change on a dime, although she’s developed her plans over years and has exerted considerable effort in related EC’s throughout high school. She must have convinced PLME of her seriousness because what she doesn’t have is lab or research experience - rural community/no opportunity. She does have projects where she organized others to get involved in international health issues - i.e. leadership and networking. We gather that most accepted grew up in either a hospital or a lab :slight_smile: so were shocked with her acceptance.</p>

<p>As far as applying to med school, MCAT specifically, she has extremely strong verbal skills so am happy to see it’s a significant part of the test. She is an articulate speaker and interviewee with lots of practice, so that should help. She’s also very attractive. She is a quick thinker and efficient studier as opposed to S who is a contemplative thinker and procrastinator. She does feel she needs 10 hours of sleep a night to be at her best, which is not a doctor trait. </p>

<p>All in all, I believe it’s going to come down to gut feeling after visiting. Her hosts and how much fun she has will probably have more influence than the school itself, our research, her goals, and cost combined!</p>

<p>Heartfelt thanks and gratitude to you all for participating in our big moment - Warmly, GLM</p>

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<p>An antidotal story that illustrates a nagging concern with the free state school:</p>

<p>Not unusual I’ve learned on here for smart, driven high school girls that D has never dated. Upon learning she was auto-admitted to state honors program, an across-the-state guy friend that she sees at EC events almost monthly asked her if she would tutor him if he also got admitted. She agreed with the condition that he would be her stand-in date when she needed one at this 2-girl: 1-boy school. His reply was that he couldn’t commit because he knew he’d be in high demand! What’s most unfortunate is that, while tactless in this instance, he isn’t necessarily conceited and what he says is true.</p>

<p>I’d rather mortgage my house and spend my retirement than send her into this type of dating environment. She says if it’s all that bad she just won’t date until after college, but what kind of social life is that going to be for her?</p>

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<p>I believe this has changed – new PLME admits are committed to Brown Med and cannot apply to other med schools. </p>

<p>And PLME is now an 8-year program – I don’t think there is a 7-year option anymore.</p>

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<p>I just wanted to repeat this. Scads of pre-med students change their majors. The weed-out courses really do weed kids out, and some kids just change their minds. And yes, this does include Harvard and Yale (the brilliant val at my local HS went to Yale as a premed and that lasted two semesters).</p>

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<p>Well, PLME students can apply to other medical schools (it’s called “applying out”), but by doing so they now forfeit their guaranteed spot at Brown’s medical school. That would pretty much be like not having been admitted to PLME at all though. This did not used to be the case.</p>