Brown PLME, Harvard, Yale or full-ride?

Parents Forum
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<p>While Geoforce stated the case perhaps less diplomatically than I did, we basically are sending you the same message. How do I put this without comming across as a jerk? The important part of medical school is not the academic courses during the first two years–those are pretty similar wherever you go. Much more important are the hospital rotations and, if you are interested in academic medicine, the research that is going on. It is in these latter areas that Brown really doesnt stack up. Frankly, there is not a single Brown affiliated hospital that I would go to if I were really sick. Something simple–gall bladder, appendix, etc.–fine. But really sick–no way. Now this is not entirely Brown’s fault. Brown does not own or control its Hospitals that way that many medical schools do. Brown built its medical school on the cheap–and basically relies on affiliated hospitals to provide the last two years of training. Brown’s Ivy league cache has helped the hospitals to upgrade somewhat–but they are simply not world class institutions. This also makes it difficult for Brown to attract top-notch faculty.</p>

<p>Research at Brown is also relatively weak. Look at how much NIH funding the top medical schools–Harvard, Johns Hopkins, Penn, Wash U, Duke, Yale, etc–get and then compare it to Brown. You’ll find that there is no comparison. </p>

<p>Brown is a great undergraduate institution. But at the graduate and professional levels, it is simply not first rate.</p>

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<p>I tend to look at things from the end point to the beginning. So it depends on what she wants to do in medicine, which specialty. OP mentioned that her D wants to work for a non-profit. So, if she doesn’t want a career in academic medicine, then where she goes to medical school is less of an issue. It makes very little difference in Primary Care which medical school she attends. Her specialty will depend on her interests and how she does in the match for residencies which does depend on the medical school she attends for some specialties but not all. If money is a concern, know that unless she joins a military or public health program to help pay for medical school, it will cost her about 50K per year so it is smart to conserve money while in college. Good grades from a state school can get you into medical school and if there were some intersting EC or research work with a professor so much the better. So it all depends on her ultimate goals.</p>

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<p>“Friends”
:)</p>

<p>DS is nearly 26. Engineer. No loans. Works at a big state university. His building is across the street from the med school. He does biorobotics. 7:5 ratio. :slight_smile: Your DD needs to acquire the fine arts of batting her eyes, do a little dance, and act slightly helpless. My guy is clueless, such a target rich environment and he’s ignoring the opportunites. :(</p>

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<p>Yale (10 char.)</p>

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<p>Wouldn’t that still be an advantage to the student intent on medical school?</p>

<p>I.e. would Brown medical school through PMLE be a “safety” if grades and MCAT are not good enough to get into medical school the usual way? If grades and MCAT are high enough, then the student has the option of “applying out”, abandoning PMLE. Brown also seems to have a lot of [grade</a> inflation](<a href=“http://www.gradeinflation.com%5Dgrade”>http://www.gradeinflation.com), which may help boosting grades for medical school applications.</p>

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<p>Is she staying on princeton’s waitlist?</p>

<p>If so, I would have her write a letter, let them know she is sitting on a Harvard and Yale acceptance and yet her top choice is still princeton.</p>

<p>And do it soon.</p>

<p>Have her personalize it, give them her reasons and say how she would contribute to “the princeton connection.”</p>

<p>Again ASAP.</p>

<p>Son agrees.</p>

<p>Kat</p>

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<p>Here’s the main problem with this logic - people change their minds all over the place in medical school. What if the OPs daughter eventually wants to go into Derm, or to become a radiologist for an under-served community while holding an academic post on the side?</p>

<p>There’s another undercurrent to your post that I’m not a huge fan of. You’re saying that its not “necessary” to go to a good medical school if someone goes into primary care. While this may be statistically true, I think this kind of thinking is the reason why primary care is absolutely in the toilet in this country. The idea that “good” medical students shouldn’t go into primary care is something engrained into the medical student consciousness, and until good medical students start going into primary care this will not change. Furthermore, why do people in under-served communities not deserve a primary care physician who graduated from UCSF or Hopkins?</p>

<p>OP, no matter what your D is interested in, the better the medical school she goes to the better off she’ll be in the end. Not only does it keep her options open, it’ll lead to better care for her patients.</p>

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<p>All really good points to consider. I agree that her interests will change or at least develop, but some doctors always wanted to be doctors. I also see both sides of the medical school pedigree issue. It’s complicated and there are too many unknowns to make a sure call. </p>

<p>D is visiting flagship fellows, Harvard, Brown and Yale over the next few weeks. Hosted dorm nights at each. This should give her a gut feel for the places from the inside, then we’ll wrestle with these other issues in comparison. If she decides she wants to wait for Princeton, we’ll zip off a letter mentioning the H & Y visits, D-Princeton matching features, and profess undying love. Mailed card in today.</p>

<p>Longprime - I’ve got a clueless S, too! He ended up being assigned two cute dates for his frat formal and from the pictures they both seem interested. What has he done about it? Nothing! D is too focused on what she considers bigger things to spend time batting her eyes. As pretty as those eyes are, she just doesn’t have it in her.</p>

<p>Geo, though D has a heart for peds, she feels general/family practitioner is best for all those she wishes to serve. Maybe she’ll be a great doctor and start a trend.</p>

<p>Thanks all!!</p>

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<p>“I.e. would Brown medical school through PMLE be a “safety” if grades and MCAT are not good enough to get into medical school the usual way? If grades and MCAT are high enough, then the student has the option of “applying out”, abandoning PMLE.”</p>

<p>That’s exactly what I was thinking. And the special attention paid to PLME students at Brown while they are undergrads is nothing to sneeze at.</p>

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<p>The person who is berating Brown’s med school, I’m not sure has a wide perspective. In my med school class at Brown, there is now a grad who is one of the nations “best” primary care docs for helping at underserved inner city areas, and Brown grads get into some of the most prestigious primary care residencies, as well as some of the best “ivory tower” specialty programs. If there is amy problem at Brown, (and even more so at John’s Hopkins, Harvard etc) it is that, like those schools it has very gifted, high performing students (remember, getting into Brown’s PLME means they are the very top of HS students) and there is a self selection bias, increased by the overall new England Ivory tower attitude against going into the low paid specialties of primary care.
I would double and triple check the status re being “locked into” Brown med from PLME. The school will not tell students very directly as again, their goal is to not admit anyone who isn’t going to stay into Brown Med, but I am fairly sure the current “penalty” is just a possible one year deferment if you apply elsewhere. It’s just that most PLMEs are very happy to stay at Brown (not have to deal with all that application junk (I could use a worse word), and get to “have a life” undergrad, not worrying about MCATs etc.) I think about the only negative as a parent would be the cost of Brown Med vs state school , but again, Brown is pretty creative with the financial aid and loans for PLMEs.</p>

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<p>Okay, my bad. This years entering class will be the first PLME class held to a new rule, that does not really allow them to opt out of the PLME, unless they don’t really want to go to Brown’s Medical School. (I guess recently too many students had figured out that it was a win win, with Brown losing. Back when I was there, no one ever left, recent economics have seen students opt out, or decide, “gee I was so good here, let me try for Harvard with guarunteed back up plan”. (Brown almost never accepts any other Brown grads unless they are RI residents.)
from Brown’s Med website:
Effective for students applying to the PLME Class of 2015 and future PLME classes.</p>

<p>PLME students have the option to apply to other medical schools. In doing so, they will be withdrawn from the position being held for them in the Alpert Medical School (AMS). However, they will have the option of applying to AMS via the standard (AMCAS) route, in which case their application will be considered alongside other standard route applicants. Individuals are asked to notify the PLME Office of their intent to “apply out” by September 15 of their senior year, or by September 15 of each year they are on deferral. Students should know that the Office of the Associate Dean of the College for Health and Law Careers will provide the PLME with the names of PLME students applying to other medical schools at the start of each academic year.</p>

<p>Like all other prospective applicants, PLME Students planning to apply to other medical schools must attend one of the group information sessions offered in the Fall Term by the Associate Dean of the College for Health and Law Careers.</p>

<p>November 2009</p>

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<p>Just go to Harvard.</p>

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<p>BrownAlumParent, as a parent and a medical professional who far outranks me, I’m going to try my hardest to be respectful. None of these comments are meant as a personal affront to you or any graduate of Brown Med. Here we go…</p>

<p>“The person who is berating Brown’s med school, I’m not sure has a wide perspective. In my med school class at Brown, there is now a grad who is one of the nations “best” primary care docs for helping at underserved inner city areas, and Brown grads get into some of the most prestigious primary care residencies, as well as some of the best “ivory tower” specialty programs.”</p>

<p>Switch out the word “Brown” for many other non-Caribbean medical schools and your statement would still apply. I know people from not-good state medical schools who get into top residences too. That doesn’t absolve the fact that Brown’s medical school, by almost any metric, is markedly inferior to many places that intelligent, top-of-their-high-school-class PLME students are capable of getting into. The research facilities are not as ground-breaking, the hospital system isn’t as well-regarded, the opportunity to perform outreach to undeserved communities isn’t as well-developed, and there’s no MSTP program (you’d think this wouldn’t apply to non-MD-PhDs, but its also a measure of the school’s caliber). And the fact that they’ve now changed the rules for PLMEs to scare them into not applying out just seals it.</p>

<p>. If you really and truly believe that your life would be so much better by not having to fill out another application (keeping in mind you still have to go through the whole rat race anyway for residency, fellowship, job applications, etc), then PLME is a viable option. If the MCAT induces so much terror that you think four years of pre-med requirements isn’t enough for you to score a 33, PLME is a viable option (although I’d argue if this is true you should reevaluate your career choice). Is going Brown medical school going to make you a bad doctor? Obviously not. No medical school in the United States will give you a bad education, and no one who graduates from those medical schools and works hard will be anything but a good doctor. But many PLME students could do much better. In my group of pre-med major friends at Brown, we ended up at MIT’s PhD program, Yale, Penn, Hopkins, Harvard NP, UChicago, Mt. Sinai, UCSF…and Brown (the PLME). And the person at Brown isn’t particularly happy about where he is. At least 3 of the people on that list were rejected from PLME (including myself), and are much better off for it.</p>

<p>“It’s just that most PLMEs are very happy to stay at Brown (not have to deal with all that application junk (I could use a worse word),”</p>

<p>They’ll have to deal with application processes anyway, continuously, throughout their medical education. What’s one more? In this case, delayed gratification is far superior. Suffering through another application process will make your life much better in the end. </p>

<p>“and get to “have a life” undergrad, not worrying about MCATs etc.)”</p>

<p>See comments above about MCAT. I also highly resent this idea that you can’t be a pre-med and have a “life”. All of the pre-meds I knew at Brown managed to do a lot outside of their medically-influenced activities. My best friend who went to Yale played a lot of intramural basketball and together we played through like 3 of the Dynasty Warriors games for the PS3. I myself spent entirely unhealthy amounts of time playing Quiz Bowl (including travelling to Chicago once a year and once flying to Stanford), video games, getting into trouble with my friends, and maintaining a relationship with my current girlfriend. The person who went to UCSF played a whole lot of Starcraft (he might be on a leaderboard somewhere). Could we afford to blow off entire semesters of classes and smoke weed every day, like some of our MCM major classmates? No. Could we afford to slack off in required pre-med classes and have to re-take organic chemistry twice like some PLMEs I knew? No. But we managed to have a “life”, as you call it, at the same time.</p>

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<p>To be honest, I think the OP’s daughter is kind of early to be so narrow in her expected direction - anthropology and then medical school? This can all change so quickly and radically as they get out in the world and really get a taste of the various fields. She should pick the school that feels best to her and where she can really explore her potential. She is smart and motivated. She’ll get to med school if that turns out to be her real dream. Right now money really should figure into the thinking, otherwise go visit the schools and encourage her to really be honest about the vibe and fit vs. the ranking. </p>

<p>Having choices can be stressful but try to help her calm down. It would be a shame if she doesn’t look back on this moment fondly. It should be a moment of great joy and not stress and worry.</p>

<p>Also think that worrying a lot about medical school prestige is kind of ridiculous.</p>

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<p>sewhappy - I haven’t been back to this thread for a few days clearing my mind and have settled on the same thoughts as you mentioned. She IS very young - will still be 17 when beginning college. She does seem set on her decision, but that’s just her personality. She also gets very excited about new ideas, which is what I expect she’ll encounter no matter where she goes. Like most students, she’ll spend a good amount of time reconciling the two while determining a life direction - and this is why they go to college, yes?</p>

<p>She is visiting her top four choices this month and says that if one of the three NE schools doesn’t blow her away, she will happily attend our state flagship whose deal is nothing to sniff at. She’s trying not to be name-brand conscience but admits it’s hard.</p>

<p>Once she’s visited and we’ve discussed her feelings about the schools, I will have her read this thread. Then we’ll discuss some more :). The wonderful thing about this decision is that she really can’t go wrong! Thank you all for your contributions!</p>

<p>She’s definitely enjoying this time in her life even with its anxiousness. All but one of her teacher’s is being very cooperative about missed school and the one isn’t being too terrible. Her grades are in for graduation rank, so she won’t lose Sal. Just back yesterday from a week in DC, she’s reveling in her jet-setting life and is with great friends at an event this weekend. Aside from watching all the packing and unpacking, I’m loving this vicarious living!!</p>

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<p>Hello CC community, first time poster here, but frequent reader.</p>

<p>I’m a current Brown student, and a pre-med, but I don’t know much about the med school process or financial aid / loans. I want to respond about my perspectives of the PLME program.</p>

<p>I have several friends in PLME, though I am not. I don’t think any of the PLMEs I know are planning on taking the MCATs or applying out. Many of them take classes S/NC, including pre-med courses, which is highly discouraged for us regular pre-meds. They don’t have to take 2 semesters of organic chemistry, like the rest of us. They would if they wanted to go to Harvard Med School.</p>

<p>That being said, I don’t find that PLMEs slack off. They are all very intelligent. PLME is wonderful if your daughter is interested in going to Alpert. It’s a less stressful, incredible undergraduate opportunity. If I had known about and had the credentials, I would have applied in a heartbeat. Also, I know a PLME that is taking 5 courses (normal course load is 4), all for a grade, and is involved in bio research. The stereotype of a PLME coasting through Brown undergrad is probably true for some, but not the ones I know.</p>

<p>Based on what I know about PLME, I feel it would be a waste of the PLME experience to plan on applying to Harvard/Hopkins/etc. If your daughter dreams of going to a top 5 med school, she shouldn’t do PLME.</p>

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<p>If she wants to study anthro and global health next to pre-med, of course, Brown encourages this academic diversity. Many PLME kids, when they begin actual med studies, have taken advantage of this opportunity to fulfill several interests, not only focus on the pre-med path. Since Brown has a strong undergraduate focus, she may also have various community health or public policy experiences behind her.</p>

<p>See what her realistic opportunities are at the others- not just the “oh, sure, you can do it,” but the reality, when packing in pre-med classes and any core curriculum requirements. </p>

<p>And, yes, when your first graduates, your finaid at Brown will change. I don’t know if Brown negotiates finaid- but you can at least ask them to help you understand how your financial picture will be viewed when you are not paying Dartmouth.</p>