Brown University vs. Washington University in St. Louis (Wash U)

Colleges and Universities A-Z Washington University in St. Louis
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<p>I'm deciding which school to ED to, and I'm really stuck! I would love any perspectives or opinions I can get!</p>

<p>I am interested in psychology and cognitive science, but am not going premed.</p>

<p>Here's where I am at right now:</p>

<p>Wash U Pros:
seemingly happy, friendly students
food
dorms
greek presence
PNP program
merit scholarships
more accessible from home (hour plane ride)
beautiful campus
ballet minor</p>

<p>Wash U Cons:
too many premeds? Just what I have heard, don't really know about this. Would love an insiders perspective
St. Louis
name recognition
too many Jewish people? Again, just what I have heard. Is this a dominating culture? I'm not Jewish. Do Jewish guys not date Jewish girls?
unattractive student body? Another rumor. When I visited, I didn't observe this, but what do you think?
lack of sports spirit</p>

<p>Brown Pros:
open curriculum
happy students
not a dominating race or religion
more even distribution of interests (not premed heavy)
name recognition
attractive student body (from what I have heard). This isn't super important, but just something that keeps coming up.
cognitive science major
period where you can test classes</p>

<p>Brown Cons:
food
dorms
further from home (4 hour plane ride)
very small greek presence
too many hippies? Another stereotype. What do you think?
too intellectual? Sometimes I don't like to be smart and academic all the time haha, if that makes sense.</p>

<p>PLEASE give me any help you can! I think I would be happy at either school, but I just really need to make a decision and I will greatly appreciate any input. Thanks!</p>

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<p>Brown and Wustl are two vastly different schools. You really can’t compare them other than to say that they’re both fantastic academically. </p>

<p>Also just going to throw this out there, if you have a problem with “too many Jewish students” you should probably look elsewhere and apply to neither. That kind of attitude is obnoxious and ridiculous (and I say this as someone who is not Jewish). For the record, WashU is apparently 26.6% Jewish, Brown is 25%.</p>

<p>From your other posts you clearly show that you don’t know enough about either school to really be applying ED. I strongly suggest waiting for the RD round.</p>

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<p>being jewish I am extremely offended by your comment. And considering that WashU is about 25% jewish you have just offended quarter of its population. And yes, jewish guys do date non Jewish girls. But not someone who is obviously a bigot.<br>
@johnson181, according to Hillel.org WashU is 25% Jewish and Brown is 15%. But I think east coast in general will be ‘too jewish’ for the OP.<br>
My daughter will be applying ED to WashU you and I sincerely hope that you will not. One of the reason she loves it so much is because of the people she met there and easy going and cooperative atmosphere. </p>

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<p>I have no problem with Jewish people I just didn’t know if it was a dominating culture</p>

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<p>I think people are overreacting to your Jewish comment, although I think you will hopefully learn a lesson from it about tact and also explaining a comment like that better. I think you meant it as a non-Catholic would ask about what it is like to attend a Catholic affiliated school, which happens on here all the time. Some schools are definitely “more Catholic” than others when it comes to day-to-day life. I think it is legitimate to ask about the atmosphere of a school that is 25%+ Jewish when you are unfamiliar with what that might entail, although as it turns out it is indeed a misguided question. There are many schools with a similar percentage of Jewish students, and it rarely is a factor that is noticeable in the routine of university life.</p>

<p>You just need to be a lot more sensitive as to how a question like that can be perceived by others. Phrasing and context are extremely important. They are not being thin-skinned. It was indelicately phrased on your part. I understand people wanting to make sure they will fit in, which is all you meant I imagine. If you are a good person and truly not biased, then you shouldn’t have any issues in this regard. At all.</p>

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<p>I get what you are saying fallenchemist, because I would ask that question about a college that was church affiliated- because I would want to know what it would be like for a Jewish student there. I would ask this not because I had any problem with students of any affiliation, but because I wouldn’t want my kids to feel isolated if they were in the minority at that school. I have heard non-Jewish students ask that question about Brandeis. What they are really asking is if they will feel like they fit in. Asking about how you will fit in to any college is an important question to ask. </p>

<p>Other than Brandeis which is getting less predominantly Jewish over the years, some Yeshivot, and schools that are oriented to Jewish studies like the American Jewish University, I don’t know of any colleges that are the majority Jewish or affiliated with Judaism. The secular colleges in the US with the highest percentage of Jewish students approach being about 30% Jewish. </p>

<p>Neither Brown nor WUSTL are affiliated with the Jewish religion in any way, so it seems odd that someone would be concerned about them being “too Jewish”. If the Jewish population at those colleges is 25%, then these colleges are by default 75% not Jewish. I don’t see how one can conclude that there is a dominant Jewish culture when the majority of the population isn’t Jewish. </p>

<p>I do however, agree that it is important that if a student is concerned about anything at a college, then it is better to ask it. There are so many colleges to choose from that I think a student can find one that is the best fit. Each college has its own mix of students and a feel to it, although many are diverse enough that students should be able to find a niche. Still, if a student feels that any college is “too Jewish” for them, I would also prefer that student find another college that fits better. </p>

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<p>I have no idea where the OP grew up, but I know, for example, that my wife grew up in a small rural town and only knew one Jewish family until she went to college. They had to drive 2 hours to get to the nearest temple, apparently. I thought it was uproariously funny when she told me her first bagel was in college. So I can see how someone might grow up in an environment where they are very naive about these issues. It certainly isn’t their fault.</p>

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<p>According to your advice, asking if there are too many Jews at WUSTL is comparable to a non-Catholic asking about what it is like to attend a Catholic affiliated school. I think that reasoning is something the community should take into account in evaluating all your advice, in general.</p>

<p>And what is uproariously funny about not having a bagel until college? What does that have to do with understanding and acceptance of peoples of different faiths? You say you “can see how someone might grow up in an environment where they are very naive about these issues”. Because they didn’t eat bagels that means they don’t know how many Jews they can tolerate? Because there are no mosques within a two hour drive, that entitles me to be insensitive to people of the Muslim faith?</p>

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<p>I don’t think there are any noticeable cultural undertones (or overtones) at Wash U. There is, however, a remarkable sense of natural diversity. Each student is a world citizen. This is a tremendous educational force which should be firmly included in your “Pro” column. </p>

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<p>@fenwaypark - You are welcome to your opinion, although you are not welcome to disparage other members. I stand by my analogy. It isn’t the direct affiliation that is the issue, it is the overall atmosphere if one group, be it religious, ethnic or otherwise represents a plurality or at least a very sizable percentage of the student population. Sorry you missed that. Pennylane certainly got it. The OP wondered if a 25% representation of one religious/ethnic group had a significant effect on the campus. It’s a legitimate question, but it was inartfully presented.</p>

<p>The bagel thing was meant to be light-hearted. But it is obvious what it has to do with the issue. It was meant to point out that many people are not exposed to other cultural elements when they are young. I never said nor remotely implied it gave anyone the right to be insensitive, just naive.</p>

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<p>I don’t see this in the OP’s post, maybe you can clarify</p>

<p>And please post up anything you believe was disparaging and if it is, I will surely apologize, publicly. Right here.</p>

<p>I think everyone’s reasoning is something the community should take into account when evaluating that person’s advice. </p>

<p>Mine included. If someone said they would evaluate me by my reasoning, I would not feel disparaged, but I shouldn’t project my feelings on others. So post up the offending language, and if it is disparaging I will apologize.</p>

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<p>For the record, I have absolutely nothing against Jewish people. My question was phrased very badly. I just wanted to know how going to a school with a Jewish percentage of 25% would affect the community and the environment. If people could stop arguing and address this question, that would be great. Thanks so much and sorry if I offended anyone. </p>

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<p>Based on personal observation, Jewish people at secular colleges do not proselytize, or walk around in separate groups, or have uniform opinions on any single issue. I do not know Jewish people to dominate cultures at secular universities…certainly not intentionally and not even inadvertently.</p>

<p>As far as the dating habits of Jewish guys, I don’t have a solid enough opinion to talk confidently about that, although I think they date according to lots of criteria other than religion (which, if correct, would tend to counter their dominating potential) </p>

<p>Again, these are just general opinions, not specific to WUSTL. So there may be something to the information you have heard. Let’s see what others say.</p>

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<p>By the way, here is a link to some stats. If you scroll down, you can see percentages.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.hillel.org/about/news-views/news-views---blog/news-and-views/2013/08/21/2013-top-schools-jews-choose”>http://www.hillel.org/about/news-views/news-views---blog/news-and-views/2013/08/21/2013-top-schools-jews-choose&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>My D attends WashU. Between speaking with her, and having been on campus several times myself, I would say that the feel on campus is very much that of a national university–only 7% come from Missouri. The school seems to make a big effort to get geographic diversity, with something like 65% coming from greater than 500 miles away. I got no sense of any religion or cultural group driving the campus vibe, unless you want to say that, like so many campuses, you sense that most kids come from families with above average income.</p>

<p>The dominant theme of the community, I think, is friendliness. My D was attracted to the school based on its “reputation for friendly students” and when we visited we immediately found this to be true. I don’t know how WashU does it- do they actually try to cull out the friendliest from among the stacks of over-qualified applicants? I don’t know. </p>

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<p>My D attends Brown and it is indeed a land of attractive rich WASPs strolling the college green. Are you kidding me? Have you been to either campus? Like any major university Brown and WashU are going to be very diverse and multicultural. If you consider that the student body is already 50 percent people of color, WASPs are a distinct minority in campus, mostly making up the sports teams. Get over it. My D applied and was accepted to both and chose Brown. I’d say that the main differences are the Greek systems (my D viewed Brown’s lack of them a positive), the academic atmosphere in class (WashU seems more intensely competitive and career oriented) and Providence beats St. Louis every which way to Sunday. I’m surprised that you say that WashU seemed to have a lot of premeds. I have to agree that that was my feeling too. Maybe it’s because so many of the students seemed to be the children of physicians. That’s purely anecdotal. I don’t think you can go wrong with either one but maybe you should choose the one that will get you out of your little cocooned place in the world. </p>

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<p>The OP asked a question and it was taken to mean different things. I have also met people who have not met any or more than a few Jewish people before, and I’ve heard some unusual questions. In many cases, they are a result of misunderstanding something someone has heard, seen on TV, read. If they are offensive, many times it was not intentional. </p>

<p>It may be more informative to ask where these schools admit all their students from. Like all people, Jewish people as a whole are very diverse, and are influenced by other factors such as where we live and grow up. A student from a small town might wonder how to fit in at a college where most students are from large cities. A college with geographical diversity is likely to have a different feel to it than one that admits predominantly from one region. To get a feel for a college, visiting and spending time there is a better way to establish if one would fit in or not. </p>

<p>If someone were to use the term “Too Jewish” with me, I would not know what they are talking about so I would ask them what they think that term means to them. A discussion of this is beyond the terms of CC, and so it is not my intention to get into it, but just to make the point that this can mean different things to different people. At first impression, that term does bother me, but getting to the meaning of it may, or may not reveal bad intentions. </p>

<p>In general, if someone has that question, it is better to ask than to be misinformed, but as fallenchemist said, there are more tactical ways to phrase it. CC is a tough place to ask it, as that will generate some critical responses, however, it may feel safer to ask this way than ask someone face to face.</p>

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<p>As someone who is Jewish I can safely say that the types of Jewish people attending Wash U aren’t the type of Jews who try to shove Judaism down your throat (as in there aren’t too many really observant Jews). In addition, the Jewish faith isn’t one to completely limit the lives of those who practice it—most American Jews practice Judaism to their own discretion, choosing which aspects of the religion they want to follow. As a result, the overall culture of the school won’t be dictated by a large Jewish student body. Jewish presence may be more evident than what you’re used to, seeing as you don’t know too many Jewish people as a whole. </p>

<p>As for whether or not Jewish boys date non-Jewish girls, it will vary from person to person. Some will, some will not. Regardless, most Jews are very friendly people and are accepting of other cultures.</p>

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<p>I was thinking a lot about this thread and I realized it’s a more complex issue, this “too Jewish” business.</p>

<p>I’m Jewish, and I’ve lived in a variety of areas in and out of the US, but mostly in the US, with % of Jewish people ranging from very tiny to fairly large (relatively - I believe that the overall population is something like 2-3% Jewish in the US, so even 15% is “fairly large”).</p>

<p>The default assumption for any kind of Christian in the US is that public culture will match their own. School doesn’t meet on Christmas; sales emphasize holidays that are also in Christians’ personal calendars; greetings are consistent with, if not overt religious practice, then “regular” cultural practice. Foods served in public are rarely something that Christians are religiously proscribed from eating in this country. Everyone views Christians as “less ethnic” or at least, “expected” as they go about their business. It’s just how it is.</p>

<p>HOWEVER, as soon as an area of the country, or a college, has more than a tipping point of “other” kinds of people, it’s not so clear that a Christian student is in the default, regular, majority anymore, with exclusively his/her own culture represented. Maybe Yom Kippur is a day of no classes (it is in some towns around Boston that I know of). Maybe kosher or hallal food is publicly advertised. Maybe there isn’t a public Christmas tree in a “universal” setting. Maybe there’s no cross in a non-denominational chapel. Any or all of these or similar things could be jarring to a Christian student who never had to think about cultures outside the majority. And to such a person, even 10% Jewish could feel “too Jewish” vs. what they had come to expect from the US.</p>

<p>And there can be darker sides of this too - maybe there are groups of people who aren’t considerate of the majority culture in whatever way, I’m sure we can all think of examples so I don’t need to say anything inflammatory.</p>

<p>It’s definitely the case that as a Jewish person, I’m more comfortable living somewhere that I’m not some weird alien, that there is kosher food in the normal supermarkets, that occasionally there are even people more overtly “ethnic” than I am so I don’t have to represent the extreme of not-regular. This comfort does come at the expense of a little bit of majority privilege. It’s no longer considered ok to just say “Merry Christmas” or assume Saturday is an available work day, in major cities in the US. Yes, there is backlash, but let’s leave that at the moment.</p>

<p>I would hazard that college and adulthood in general is ideally served by people getting out of their comfort zones and meeting new types of people. For those in minority cultures, they are nearly <em>always</em> confronted with “other” cultures and types of people. For those in the majority, it might be necessary to try a little bit harder. So is WUSTL “too Jewish” at 25%? It is certainly the case that a Christian would have to question his/her universality in a college environment at 25% Jewish, which I think is a big positive.</p>

<p>As for Brown - it’s Hillel is known to be not as strong as WUSTL’s. If that helps the OP make a decision. ;)</p>

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<p>The more Jewish, the better. I love Jewish people. :)</p>