Brown versus Berkeley

<p>Hello!</p>

<p>Right now I’m having a really hard time picking between Brown and UC Berkeley with a Regents Scholarship. Currently the biggest issue I have is dealing with finances. Brown seems to think my parents have money so they gave us a big fat zero financial aid whereas Berkeley comes at in state prices. I’m going in as a Public Policy major at Brown and a Political Science major at Berkeley. I love the environment at both schools and I think I would be pretty happy either way although Brown just seems so perfect. Is Brown worth a massive amount of loans? Any insight is welcome!</p>

<p>I am having the EXACT SAME dilemma!! I love Berkeley and I love Brown… Finances are not an issue for me. I feel like I have two amazing options, and I just can’t decide!</p>

<p>The question of whether Brown is worth a bunch of loans depends on your situation. The FA forum here is quick to point out that large amounts of loans end up being more difficult to pay back than you’d first think. It might be worth seeing what sorts of payments would be expected on the loans and figure out what sort of salary that would require (remember what you may lose to taxes). Is it worth potentially living very frugally for years to come? It’s hard to justify Brown over a school you like a lot that’s much cheaper, unless you have something you can do at Brown but can’t there; if the prices are closer, it may be much harder to decide.</p>

<p>I see what your saying. Ours situation is such that we could probably afford paying 10K a year and I could work study off about 5K a year so I’m realistically looking at 180K in loans which is no laughing matter. I do plan on trying to be a RA and taking away the housing costs but that’s not guaranteed. I guess i just have to do some more concrete analysis like you suggested in terms of projected income and loan payments which I have not done. I just feel like the opportunities that Brown offers are so tremendous that it would be worth the cost. I’m going to appeal their financial aid decision and hope for the best!</p>

<p>I made the exact same decision two years ago. I was not in a financial bind, so I can not speak to that issue.</p>

<p>However, I made up my mind while on visiting Berkeley’s campus. At the time I thought I was going to be a Math major and had the opportunity to speak with a Berkeley PhD student who had been a Brown undergrad. He told me that it would be easier to get classes and have relationships at Brown, the smaller of the two schools. He also endorsed Brown’s open door policy. He recommended I go to Brown undergrad and pursue Berkeley for grad school. I took his advice and appreciate it to this day</p>

<p>As much as I love Brown, I don’t know if taking out a large amount of loans when you have such a great alternative is worth it. $180K is a lot of money – especially if you plan on going to grad school. Many people would say that Brown and Cal are similar in a lot of ways and I don’t think you’d “lose out” in any way, really, if you were to attend Cal. </p>

<p>I had two friends who were deciding between Cal and Brown. One chose to go to Brown and one chose to go to Cal. I highly doubt any of them regret their decision. Some of the smartest people in my class turned down the likes of Williams, Northwestern, Duke, among others, for Cal. </p>

<p>Ultimately, of course, the decision is up to you – if you think that having the Brown experience is worth that amount in loans. Like Uroogla said, you should definitely look further into the finances. Either way, both are amazing schools with fantastic people, and I’m sure you’ll have an amazing college experience at either school. I’m a Brown undergrad, btw, and loving Brown, although my post might suggest otherwise. ;)</p>

<p>Brown is great, but 180k is loans isn’t to be given a second thought. You will have the fine name of Berkeley on you dimloma to serve you well in years to come.</p>

<p>Before you file any appeal, did you run your family EFC on a calculator and see if the Brown award is out of line or not? There is one on this site, on college board’s site and FAFSA has an estimator that might be more through. At least you will have some basis to evaluate on. Can you compare your Brown EFC to any other private college EFC.</p>

<p>thank you guys for all of the valuable input! Part of me knows that Berkeley would be great especially for the price, but I just don’t want to lose out and wonder what would have been if I had gone to Brown although that might sound silly. 180k is a heck of a lot of money though. It just such a tough decision. I’m going to visit Brown and hopefully that can give me some more info to reach a conclusion. In the end though I know that I am going to have a great experience at either school!</p>

<p>@ BrownParent: The main reason I am going to appeal their decision is that on paper our income is high, but my father for the past six years has not been living at home and has been working in another state so the cost of running two households kind of canceled out a lot of the income. He just moved back but took a new job with half the salary so our ability to pay is a lot different than what our taxes might indicate. and the only other private school I got admitted too was Georgetown SFS which also gave little to no aid but my preference is either Brown of Berkeley.</p>

<p>■■■■ pardon my french, but SAME EXACT PROBLEM OVER HERE!!! PLEASE GIVE ME A CALL!!! OR PM ME!!! OR SOMETHING!!! I am leaning more towards Brown every day that passes, and I love Brown, but I totally thought I was going to go to Berkeley until yesterday. When I realized I’d rather be going to Brown.</p>

<p>Also, definitely appeal your decision! I’ve heard that appealing fin aid at Brown is really effective, especially for someone with your circumstances.</p>

<p>(Brown 2015?)</p>

<p>In my opinion, Brown and Berkeley are very similar and both are great schools. If you are planning to do a master’s degree, then I would suggest you go for Berkeley. </p>

<p>It would be wise to spend less money when faced with two very similar schools. Also, you would have the Berkeley name in your CV which is a major advantage after undergrad.</p>

<p>Personally, I would choose Berkeley over Brown even with no finaid problem, but again that’s just my two cents.:D</p>

<p>Thanks for the input! Yeah I can see how Berkeley and Brown are very similar I just feel that there will be such a different and more personalized education at Brown versus at Berkeley</p>

<p>rahuja: You should definitely call and talk to financial aid, and be prepared with all the information. </p>

<p>However …</p>

<p>Under no circumstances should you or your family take out $180,000 in loans. Absolutely no college is worth that. </p>

<p>First, it is doubtful that any lender would approve that amount of loans by your third year. Second – find an online calculator and figure out what the monthly payments would be on a $180,000 loan, and then figure out what monthly income you would need to earn to pay that amount (and remember that you’ll need money for rent and food and insurance and transportation, too). Trust me, you will not find a job on this planet that would enable you to repay a loan of that size. And saddling your parents with that level of debt when they should be saving for retirement is also not very considerate of their future.</p>

<p>i see what you mean completely. I definitely am not going to take 180K in loans that is way to much. But if I can get it under say, 100K, then I am going to consider it and try my best to make it work. I know i have to be realistic, but Brown is just so amazing it makes everything harder haha</p>

<p>I am currently ~50k, and will be about 80-90k in debt when I graduate (and I planned so that I could be up to 120k). However, I was making the decision between Brown and a much lesser state school, so it’s not entirely analogous.</p>

<p>That said, here’s my advice (from my experience with it all):

  1. Talk to financial aid. However, don’t expect too much. They operate on an east-coast finances presumption (i.e. parents have saved for your schooling rather than expect to pay out of their salaries).</p>

<ol>
<li><p>If you have a younger sibling who will end up in college, talk to financial aid (if your federal EFC is ~40-50k, you could be looking at ~20-30k in scholarships when your sibling enters, provided your parent’s income doesn’t increase)</p></li>
<li><p>YOU cannot take out these loans. Technically speaking, my parents have taken out most of my debt (in PLUS loans). I will be spending the first year of my working career deferring my federal loans, and paying solely to my parents. But your parents need to take on the risk without any recourse if you “default.” This is really stressful and only barely works with my family. The most loans you can take out under solely your name is 50k. And that’s if you qualify for Perkins loans. Without that qualification, you’ll only be able to take out 38k. And those will be at 6.8% interest, compounding immediately. And anything above that (in PLUS) will be at 7.9%, compounding immediately. And all loans must be paid off within 10 years.</p></li>
<li><p>Working in school isn’t fun. Yes, a lot of people do it, but you likely won’t want to. And really, on a cost-benefit analysis, if the work isn’t enjoyable, it ends up not being worth it (especially if it precludes you from taking 5 classes). You say “I can earn X in school,” but you should probably halve that to get a realistic number on what you’ll actually be willing to/able to earn.</p></li>
<li><p>It CAN be worth it. Provided the educational experience is going to be significantly different, and the earnings power/capability to be working exactly where you want later on is rather different. From internship offers I already have received, for me in the field I’ve entered (CS), Brown is far better and I likely will have >=$15k/year difference in starting salary between here and my state option (and I have always been frugal enough that I ought be able to put all of this into paying down debts). Furthermore, I’m now able to get work pretty much exactly where I want, which wasn’t true at my state school (at all). I don’t think this holds with Berkeley. Furthermore, I AM getting scholarship aid from Brown, and my family’s actual contribution seems to be around yours. FURTHERMORE, I didn’t really like my state school. I had gone to a “register for courses!” day, and the advisor basically told me that I wasn’t going to be able to take classes that were important to me but outside my major (especially language classes that I’d need to take every semester), because they weren’t necessary and might not fit if I got into the wrong section. He wasn’t even willing to entertain the notion that I could delay taking the classes necessary for my major (because really, I couldn’t, because then I’d be off-track, etc. etc.).</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Basically, I’d say if you have to go more than 120k in debt, it’s likely not going to be worth it (especially given that the alternative is Berkeley). If you could get it under 80k, then you might have an argument, but you probably need a perfect storm of other factors besides you like Brown a bit more.</p>

<p>The “What-if” argument works just as well the other way: if you come to Brown and go into massive debt, then have to work hard and live cheaply in order to pay it back, are you going to ask “what if I’d gone to Berkeley and been debt free? Could I have done that study abroad program? Could I have done Teach for America?” etc.</p>

<p>It is very important that the school financial aid office know all the special circumstances such as 1) maintaining 2 households cause one parent works out of state, and ESPECIALLY 2) current income and projected income for 2011. This should have been detailed in your application, but don’t delay to appeal and lay this out.</p>

<p>You should not visit Brown, given your circumstances, it is foolish. If you are considering $180 in loans for an undergraduate degree you have a serious lack of perspective and need someone else to be making decisions for you. Especially when you have the option of a top school like Berkeley for a fraction of the cost. The last 2 years at Berkeley or maybe 3 depending on how soon you are in your department and taking mostly classes there, will be stellar and personal. You will get into grad schools from both these schools.</p>

<p>My daughter did choose Brown over Berkeley but she had the luxury, because she would end up with more EFC and debt at Berkeley. If she did not have that luxury there is no way I would have allowed her to go to Brown (or any other school.)</p>

<p>thank you very much for the insight. i hope you know that i am not seriously considering taking out 180K in loan, the only way i can attend Brown is if the loan is substantially less. I tried to include that information in my CSS profile and such but I am going to try and make that case again. Berkeley is an amazing school as well and i dont doubt that, but Brown is somewhere i can really myself. but im going to make sure its financially reasonable as well</p>

<p>I would go with Brown.</p>

<p>What about asking them to reconsider? – they might just give you something!</p>

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<p>Don’t do it. $20,000 - $30,000 is a reasonable amount of loans to graduate with. Anything higher is really foolish. Berkeley is an excellent school with an excellent reputation – probably has a better rep in California than Brown does. In today’s uncertain economy, with the future just as uncertain, it is too risky to graduate with lots of debt. It will affect your ability to buy a house and a car. It means having no disposable income, so you’ll have no money for any entertainment.</p>

<p>Okay fireandrain, thanks for the insight! I know you are probably right. Im just crossing my fingers and hoping that i can make Brown work but I need to be reasonable about what is possible.</p>