Brown vs. Green (Dartmouth)

Colleges and Universities A-Z Dartmouth College
41

<p>I can justify my claims with endless support. I was very involved with the administration while I was there, and led the committee on the student life initiative regarding frats and their role. I could probably cite 20 articles to back this point.</p>

<p>I don't think Dartmouth is a Brown wannabe at all. If you look at how the school has developed as an institution though, it has evolved from the homogenous, wealthy, athletic focused, conservative type school into a diverse, open minded, and very spirited place. It has managed to retain the good things (amazingly tight community, awesome academics, great social scene), while becoming a very welcoming place to a diverse spectrum. It is a place that is liberal, but where the students don't bash conservatives. I honestly think it is perhaps one of the most "balanced" schools out there. I actually love where the school is today and where its headed. It is still uniquely Dartmouth, and it is awesome.</p>

42

<p>Slipper,</p>

<p>I shall then be resigned to take you not only for all that is ‘pretty known’ but for the fact and source itself.</p>

<p>I am also chastened to know that "conservative type school" and "diverse open minded, and very spirited" are logically at odds with one another and that in fact this was due to a Darwinian adaptation in “evolving” into what I presume to be a higher form and as such from a “conservative type school” into “a place that is liberal” while retaining an atmosphere “where the students don't bash conservatives.”</p>

<p>Not being bashed is something all conservatives long for.</p>

43

<p>As opposed to this as you might be, conservative schools tend to not be very diverse. These are intimidating environments for many. Dartmouth has evolved into a diverse liberal school with a conservative presence, which personally I think is a higher form than what it was before. Additionally, Dartmouth conservatives tilt libertarian, which makes them uniquely interesting in their own light.</p>

<p>Here conservative guru and Dartmouth alum Dinesh D'Souza is even admitting that Dartmouth and Brown are converging.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.browndailyherald.com/news/2005/03/21/CampusNews/Dsouza.Sees.A.More.Politically.Diverse.Brown-898576.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.browndailyherald.com/news/2005/03/21/CampusNews/Dsouza.Sees.A.More.Politically.Diverse.Brown-898576.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

44

<p>Slipper</p>

<p>Would it then be fair to say, in your words, that Brown has “evolved from the homogenous, wealthy, …. [Liberal] “type school into a diverse, open minded, and very spirited place” or has Brown historically been known as a non-homogeneous, non-wealthy, and therefore open-minded place; or did its historical reputation for being politically and culturally uber-liberal cancel out the fact that its student body is/was homogenous, wealthy and liberal and therefore less open minded to points of view that do not fit a homogeneously wealthy, liberal, debutante stereotype.</p>

<p>If both Brown and Dartmouth have evolved from institutions that represented a homogeneous, wealthy, and monolithically liberal/conservative point of view, than how would becoming more liberal for one (Dartmouth) be more important than becoming more conservative for the other (Brown)?</p>

<p>You can’t be saying that becoming a better institution is a zero-sum universal solution achieved only by becoming exclusively more liberal. You would have to be pretty close-minded to say it, wouldn’t you--even dogmatic, and that does not seem to be the image liberals tend to wrap themselves in.</p>

<p>It is probably fair to say that intellectual diversity is a good thing, but it is unfair to imply that being exclusively one or the other is already to be diverse.</p>

<p>Dartmouth does not need to be “Brown in the wilderness.” Brown will do a good enough job being Brown even if only in a city. I hope that there is more to separate Dartmouth from Brown than the fact that one has a view of the mountains and one a view of the city--I’m more interested in intellectual views than mere environmental ones.</p>

45

<p>Kali,</p>

<p>I perhaps should make it more clear. Brown has been shedding its uber-liberal image and is becoming more tolerant to other viewpoints, and Dartmouth has moved from conservative to liberally leaning with a vocal conservative element. I think the transition to the middle/ moderate left from conservative has been a good thing, and the incredible increase in diversity at Dartmouth particularly is a great thing.</p>

46

<p>Afan: Only a parent could appreciate your reply and know how to respond in an instructive and mature manner. No statement of fact was made by me that Brown was leaving the Ivy league. That was an attempt by you at errant conjecture to make a point not present in the discussion. Thus, the entire premise of your missive was self-serving and erroneous. I recommend you read material carefully and critically before you react or, in this case, over-react. More importantly, it remains my opinion that Brown has turned a certain corner in its history and the administration is now at a point of no return. It deliberately became and remains an ultra-liberal institution. It is the poor Ivy for a reason. Despite the presence of a few more students who are perceived to be more to the right politically, it is the administration--not a few token potentially republican undergraduates, that sets policy for the university. Brown is liberal, like Antioch. I only stated the obvious. If that makes you uncomfortable re-think your options. In my opinion I don't think Brown has any qualms about seceding from the Ivy League, and as soon as it can develop an endowment without Ivy membership nothing will justify Brown remaining a member any longer. What difference does that really make to you? Or are you just another closet elitist, too? In sum, I think the fact that they are both Ivy League institutions is where any comparison between Dartmouth and Brown starts and ends.</p>

47

<p>I completely agree. The ivy league name has been overused to the point where prestige is only warranted when a school bears its name. If Brown seceded from the Ivy league (unlikely), it would still be wonderful old Brown. Places like Stanford, MIT, CIT, Uchicago, and Duke prove that the ivy league name is just that...a name.</p>

48

<p>Wow, Lawyerdad you start by saying you never said Brown was leaving the Ivy League, then you say it again. Why are you obsesed with this? Did some Ivy League player yell at you when you were a kid?</p>

<p>IT IS A SPORTS LEAGUE. The schools compete in sports. If a school leaves, then it needs another set of schools against which to compete in sports. Why would being on one or the other end of the POLITICAL spectrum have anything to do with competition in sports? If Brown had NO republicans, what would this have to do with basketball? If Brown had NO democrats, what would this have to do with swimming?</p>

<p>"deliberately became and remains an ultra-liberal institution" So what? It is a free country. What does this have to do with football?</p>

<p>"it is the administration--not a few token potentially republican undergraduates, that sets policy for the university." True of every university of which I have ever heard. Do you know any at which "a few token potentially republican undergraduates" set policy? THis would be a strange way to run a university. One would be in serious trouble if one year you came up a little short on token republican undergrads. Who would run the place? What does this have to do with tennis?</p>

<p>"as soon as it can develop an endowment without Ivy membership nothing will justify Brown remaining a member any longer" Um, but they would still need schools to play in soccer.</p>

<p>I am an elitist, well out of the closet, but not particularly for Brown or Dartmouth. What does this have to do with field hockey?</p>

<p>"I think the fact that they are both Ivy League institutions is where any comparison between Dartmouth and Brown starts and ends" You cannot be serious. Are they not both old, private, prestigious schools in the northeast with relatively small graduate programs, heavy focus on undergraduate education? Do they not both enroll large percentages of upper middle class and wealthy students, many from the northeast, many from prep schools? To get back to sports, do they not both compete in D 1AA? Look at entry credentials of students, graduate and professional school placements, demographics, size of institutions. Differences in the perceived political orientation of the administrations may be very important to you, but claiming that, because of this, the schools are not similar weakens your entire argument.</p>

<p>And again, What is wrong with NYU and Antioch?</p>

49

<p>you've got to be kidding me.</p>

<p>Firstly, only a lawyer could justify his own offensive unqualified speculation by calling a reasonable expression of offense "erroneous"</p>

<p>Secondly, you are clearly unfamiliar with the history of either institution, the basics of how a non-profit organization is run, the culture of academia, or anything else that would qualify your speculations.</p>

<p>Do you understand what endowment is? How it is used? Brown is not poor--no Ivy league institution is. In terms of resources per student, Brown is right in the middle of the Ivy group. In areas such as research support, grants, student financial aid, faculty retention and several other measures, Brown is in fact considerably better off than Dartmouth. In other areas, such as ability to leverage funds for capital projects (building, etc.), Dartmouth is better off than Brown. </p>

<p>Endowment only facilitates perpetuity of capital endeavors. It does not measure current utilization of resources. Furthermore, endowment has absolutely nothing to do with membership in the Ivy League. </p>

<p>Most people that are actually informed know that Brown and Dartmouth are strikingly similar institutions, particularly right now. Both are launching capital campaigns of identical magnitude, both face the same challenges going forward. They have different personalities, but this is a regard in which every institution is unique.</p>

50

<p>Afan: Don't be a loser. Be gracious. Maybe you'll be invited to sit at the grown-up's table. BTW, you are the only one implying anything is "wrong" with Antioch.</p>

51

<p>Lawyer, dont ruin your credibility by resorting to insults. We are all very intelligent people, and afan is just stating his opinion. </p>

<p>Now, dcircle is right. The ivy league is a sporting partnership that just so happens to contain some of the most elite institutions in the world. However, MIT kills A LOT of these schools in a lot of areas, yet it will never be "INDUCTED" into this league anytime soon. Brown and Dartmouth seem quite similar, it is just that Brown is a lot more liberal in terms of its curriculum. Postitive or negative? You be the judge</p>

52

<p>Lawyerdad, what on earth makes you think you have the right to be so condescending towards afan when you yourself are quite uninformed?</p>

53

<p>dcircle, Devil thanks, Hate to drag you into this.</p>

<p>Devil, I agree with you that there are lots of elite colleges that don't want to join the Ivies, for competitive as well as geographic reasons. It would be a step down athletically for Duke or Stanford (Stanford would probably win nearly every Ivy championship), and it would force MIT to move up from D3 to D 1AA. </p>

<p>lawyerdad. We have hijacked this thread for students who are deciding where to go to college. How about you starting a new thread "all liberals are bad" or "Ivy League sports are for conservatives only", and I will be happy to follow.</p>

54

<p>For those of us who are actually concerned with choosing Brown vs. Green, the pointless generalizations and insults are not helping.</p>

<p>Joey</p>

55

<p>very true. Brown was my dream school for a while, and Darty will always hold a special place in my heart. </p>

<p>Have u tried innie minnie mynnie moe?</p>

56

<p>I think every student on this board, including afan, is very capable of making the decision about which school to attend. You all deserve the best possible opportunities ahead. Everyone is different and perceives differences differently. Most importantly, I'm just one person with one opinion. Good luck to all.</p>

57

<p>"I agree with you that there are lots of elite colleges that don't want to join the Ivies"</p>

<p>What on earth is this supposed to mean. Were invitations sent out and declined? Whenever I see this kind of ridiculous over-statement I know someone is off on a tangent, or up to no-good (usually the latter).</p>

58

<p>The Ivy League is a sports league. Schools (like Stanford and Duke) that compete at a higher athletic level would not want to join. Schools (like MIT and Caltech) that compete at a lower level would not want to join. Since all the Ivy schools are in the Northeast, schools that are not would not want to join, and the other Ivy schools would not be interested in sending their students farther away.</p>

59

<p>afan is right. The ivy league is a frickin sports league. Why would stanford join?</p>

60

<p>“Why would stanford join?”
And why would anyone ask them to?</p>

<p>It’s a stupid argument any way you look at it made by people who like to cause trouble. </p>

<p>How about, would Stanford join the UN, or the EU?</p>