Brown vs UCL

Hello, I have an offer from Brown University and UCL (University College London) and frankly cannot make my mind up. **I am an international student from Europe/b looking to study biological sciences>molecular biology and creative writing at Brown as well.

As an international who has never visited the US, I am eager to go study in the country but I’m just not sure of the quality of education in the sciences I’ll receive at Brown nor about the opportunities of research in Providence. So I guess my questions are these:

1. Education wise, which university is better for undergraduate study in the biological sciences? UCL is in the top 10 in all rankings for my major whereas Brown is hardly in the first 100 (but those are for graduate programs so I’m not sure how much I should look into them)

2. How comparable are the research opportunities between Providence and London or just UCL and Brown? Obviously London is a humongous city with myriad companies dealing with what I’m interested in so I’m sure I’d have less trouble finding opportunities here than in Providence. Also: what kind of level of research can students who study biology/chemistry perform at Brown?

3. Could you compare the overall vibes of the universities if possible?

4. Generally speaking, how does the education at Brown and UCL compare to HYSPM? I did not get into any of these schools so this may be a bit unrelated but it can help me understand the education at Brown by comparing it to schools whose educational system I’ve researched the most. It would also help me clear some confusing thoughts, for example I heard that HYSPM schools do not focus on their undergraduate education at all and all the professors have assistant students hold lectures - is the same situation visible at Brown? Also, is grade inflation at Brown similar to these schools?
Also, I’ve heard stuff saying that studying at Brown is far more stressful (which I’m after so it’s ok) than at HYSPM, although I may be mixing up Brown and UChicago. Is the stress and hard lectures thing correct as well?

5. Are the creative writing classes at Brown worth it? While I’d be studying solely biology at UCL, at Brown I might take some classes on creative writing which is really cool.

I’m sorry if I came off as harsh during any of this, I’m just feeling so lost and wish somebody could answer these questions of mine (you don’t have to answer all of them, you can just tell me your general feeling about me et al!)

  1. Education wise, the structures of the US style of education and the UK style of education could not be more different. In the UK, you're definitely more focused, while in the US, you'll take a broader scope of classes. UCL is probably better for an graduate-style education, but if you want an inflated GPA, go to Brown.
  2. UCL is renowned for its biological research and even has research connections to Yale. UCL is incomparable to Brown in terms of research opportunities.
  3. Brown - Chill, pretentious, funky. UCL - Fun(drinking age is 18), tryhard.
  4. Brown is much below HYSPM. Right up there with Cornell. I would say UCL is more like Columbia. You're definitely mixing up Brown and UChicago. UChicago is where fun goes to die (which is why I'm not going), and Brown's grade inflation runs rampant with an average gpa of 3.6-7 for undergraduates. The one upside about Brown is that students receive more individualized attention whereas lecturers at UCL are "more bad than good".
  5. Depends on what you want.

Although UCL seems superior in all facets, the one thing Brown has going for it is its Ivy name and has been leeching off of it for awhile now. Though UCL has far superior research opportunities than Brown has (which is close to none), studying at Brown will be an easier time(grade inflation) and you’ll have better choices for graduate school. While I did compare UCL to Columbia, most people from the United States will be like what’s UCL? To any British person, UCL will seem amazing and comparable to Oxford, but only US Ivy schools, Oxford and Cambridge will be known everywhere. If you want to end up living in the UK go to UCL. Otherwise I would recommend Brown.

How much research do undergrads do in UK unis?
They would get the chance to at a place like Brown.

So here is a rather different take on your decision, by somebody who knows both systems pretty well and has been through both undergrad and grad processes in both.

Rule #1 on CC is to ask about $$: can you equally afford both?

As to your specific questions:

  1. UK vs US: this is a key component of your choice. Do you want to intensively study just one thing for 3/4 years (UK) or study a range of things, specializing in one (US)? If you are pretty sure that you are PhD bound, it does not make a big difference which you do, but it is useful to be aware that *in general*, in England you do your Masters as the 4th year, then apply in the spring of that year to PhD programs, and in the US it is more common to apply directly to PhD programs in the winter of your 4th (& final) year of undergrad. The PhD process in the US is much more structured than in the UK (from application to funding). You can move between the two, and it is easiest to do that at the end of undergrad. Either Brown or UCL will prepare you for grad school.
  2. [quote] How comparable are the research opportunities between Providence and London or just UCL and Brown? Obviously London is a humongous city with myriad companies dealing with what I'm interested in so I'm sure I'd have less trouble finding opportunities here than in Providence.

    [/quote]

London is a humongous city & Providence is a small provincial town- but how many of those London companies are looking for undergrad research interns during the summer (you would not have the time to work for them during term time)?

Although it is changing, it has not been typical in the UK for undergrads to do internships. Those looking to do law, finance & consulting do them as a short cut into jobs post-graduation, and motivated science students will work with professors over the summer, but the majority of students still take the summer as vacation or for summer jobs to earn money. B/c I don’t know any biochem students at UCL, I am basing my answer on science students that I know at other UK universities: of the UK science students that I know / know of, only two had meaningful research work as undergrads. In one case (the ranking biochemist in his year at Oxford) summer work with his professor turned into summer research at a London-based company, which is now sponsoring his PhD. In another (Edinburgh), the student worked every summer with the same professor, then through the Masters year, and has just been accepted to Durham for a PhD.

Brown has paid summer research jobs for undergrads, and some through-the-year research opportunities as well. US science students at LACs (like Brown) apply for paid summer research positions in the preceding winter. These are typically 8-10 week placements, at universities & research centers all over the US, where they do primary research (which not infrequently ends up published). So my collegekid (at an even smaller, more remote, and less prestigious LAC than Brown) has 3 publications before finishing undergrad, research in 3 different labs (with recommendation letters from each), and offers from all of the top-10 PhD programs she applied to.

tl;dr: in both cases, it will be what you make of the opportunities at hand that matters

  1. Vibe differences: UCL has commandeered sections of a large city, and you will largely be focused in one area. Afaik, the new student centre is right in the same complex as most of the bioscience buildings. You can play on UCL's maps to see how that works for accommodation. So, the pros/cons of being based in a full-on city. Much more independent: you will find your friends largely through your subject and any interests you have (there is a student union that is a central place for info and interest-specific societies/clubs). Brown is campus-centric: undergrads are required to live in dorms (halls) through the third year, specifically to foster a sense of community, so everything is an easy walk. Your friends will come from your activities and your dorm as well as your classes. School spirit and alum network is a real thing (including [this](http://www.brownnyc.org/)).
  2. [quote] Generally speaking, how does the education at Brown and UCL compare to HYSPM?.... I heard that HYSPM schools do not focus on their undergraduate education at all and all the professors have assistant students hold lectures - is the same situation visible at Brown? Also, is grade inflation at Brown similar to these schools?... studying at Brown is far more stressful (which I'm after so it's ok) than at HYSPM, although I may be mixing up Brown and UChicago. Is the stress and hard lectures thing correct as well?

    [/quote]

Your research is incomplete and not really accurate even for HYSPM- there are some significant differences between them in the educational experience. But, as they are not relevant to your question, I’ll leave that be!

Brown has a serious focus on undergraduate education and it is much more likely that you will know and interact closely with your profs there than at UCL. Assessments at Brown are likely to be more frequent and more varied in type. Brown is a bit of a dark horse: b/c it has a lot of flexibility in graduation requirements and a somewhat informal or laid-back air, people sometimes mistake it for being easy. In fact, Brown profs have quite expectations of their students, but (going back to the vibe question) the students tend to be less overtly competitive and ambitious- they tend to push themselves out of their own motivations. The level of academic expectation isn’t less.

Bottom line: the two schools are at least peers. I strongly disagree with cherrypie’s assertion that UCL = Columbia, on several fronts, but would put it more like UMich or UIUC: a top public research university. I also disagree that Brown is “far below” the other top unis (or that it has been ‘leeching’ of it’s name!), but then a difference of opinion is what makes a horse race. I don’t know what the focus on grade inflation is about, b/c it is really not an important variable- especially when comparing US & UK unis.

  1. [quote] Are the creative writing classes at Brown worth it? While I'd be studying solely biology at UCL, at Brown I might take some classes on creative writing which is really cool.

    [/quote]

I think you answer yourself: if doing some creative writing classes sounds really cool to you, you won’t get another chance to do it.

It’s why the collegekid I mentioned above did undergrad in the US: her pals over the way only studied their subject; she did her subject (and well enough to get into top-tier PhD programs), but also got to take a bunch of other classes just for the sheer enjoyment of learning. On the other hand, her sister in the UK can think of nothing she would like to study more than her subject, and loves wallowing in it.

It’s really horses for courses: both will prepare you for the next step. Assuming that finances are not an issue, which experience sounds more like you? Go for that one.

Here is a good Ted Talk by Kenneth Raymond Miller, a cell biologist and molecular biologist who is currently a Professor of Biology at Brown describing Brown’s approach to undergrad education and research.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aNp6bJCAhU