<p>Andover’s mean/median SAT is about 2100. This means half of its graduating class presumably receive <2100 on the SAT, which does not necessarily make them competitive Ivy+SM candidates. It’s thus preposterous to assume “these top students coming out of their middle schools” would have secured spots at Ivies as easily as you claim. When you factor in matriculations at schools like Duke, Amherst, UChicago, Williams, Caltech, JHU which are generally considered as selective as many of the Ivies, however, the matriculation rates at top schools impressively rise to the 50s.</p>
<p>These are pre-selected kids at the top of their game in middle school. It is easy to stand out in a bigger general pool (local ps) than in a pool of top students at Andover. This is also the conclusion of Andover students as reported in Phillipian. If you don’t believe this conclusion, I welcome you or your kids to enroll in Andover and see for yourself.</p>
<p>fwiw, here is Lawrenceville’s 2013 matriculation:</p>
<p>Students: 235
HYPSM: 33, 14%
Ivies+SM: 62, 26%
US News top 25 Univ + top 15 LACs: 133, 57%
US News top 50 + top 30 LACs: 182, 77%</p>
<p>@paalsh: in this day and age, 1/3 of the class going to ivy+ and 2/3 to highly selective top schools are impressive for ANY high school, and especially for a school of Andover’s size. That’s all.</p>
<p>pwalsh: prep schools don’t necessarily admit exclusively students with the best credentials. They’re also looking to build a class, even if that means admitting a lower caliber student who would not get into the Ivies. A friend of mine, who has just graduated, was rejected by Peddie 4 years ago. He was accepted last year by 6/7 of the Ivies he applied to (Yale, Princeton, Brown, Cornell, UPenn, Columbia, waitlised at Harvard) but, well, rejected by Peddie.</p>
<p>On a side note, I would love to see how smaller schools like Groton fare in the matriculation game. I expect the % of matriculations to top 50 Uni to be higher that that at large schools like Andover, Exeter, Lville, and Choate.</p>
<p>I agree with those who discourage people from sending their kids to boarding school to help their kids get into an Ivy. However, sweeping generalizations about boarding school hurting a kid’s chance at admissions to Ivies don’t work for me either. Perhaps if you qualified that to something like “a full pay kid from the East Coast coming out of an excellent public school system might have an even or better chance at Ivy enrollment coming out of his/her local school.” However, the generalization in pwalsh’s post ignores the many, many students who are (a) receiving significant financial aid and (b) afforded opportunities at boarding school that would never have been close to possible at home. An Ivy admit is likely for my kid because of his boarding school, not despite it. </p>
<p>And I agree with MBV that all boarding school kids are not necessarily Ivy-bound eighth graders (!) Many have interests that get honed in a richer boarding school environment and that send them off in other directions. Nor is it the goal of college counseling to get as many kids into Ivies at possible. At Exeter, the emphasis coming out of college counseling is fit, not name.</p>
<p>Classicalmama, I agree with you for the most part, but I don’t think the college counseling’s “de-emphasizing” of lvies is a significant factor in the outcome of college matriculation in schools like Exeter. I think in these days at the private schools in the east even the super competitive NYC private schools included, it doesn’t take college counselors’ campaign to get enough interest in Ivies. MOST of the strongest students are naturally considering Ivy+ schools and very likely matriculating in one when they can get in. Let’s face it. Just as with prep schools, these big name colleges are excellent schools with the most generous financial aid programs and big name doesn’t hurt either.</p>
<p>The idea that if you can get in Andover, then you should end up in an Ivy 4 years later otherwise it’s a failure is ridiculous. As selective as Andover is, it is not a recruiting machine for Ivy league, and its applicant pool is much much more limited than any Ivy league school’s. Besides, just because you are a top student in <em>your</em> middle school doesn’t mean you will necessarily be a top student in the Ivy league or top school applicant pool. Is it so hard to understand?</p>
<p>The matriculation rates at many of the BS’s are indeed impressive, but I would point to the type of student these schools are turning out. The vast majority of them are unarguably more prepared for college on every level than your typical high school graduate. But at the end of the day, a student’s file is what it is. It all comes down to the quality of work and effort put forth by that individual student. The window dressing that some argue is applied to children of valued legacy families can only take them so far. The bottom line is that the student has to to do the work. They have to earn the grades and standardized test scores that will make them a candidate for admission to the top schools.</p>
<p>Sure, there is flexibility for recruited athletes but I assure you that route is no walk in the park either. It is still a lot of hard work, time commitments and continual competition. Once recruited and enrolled the student faces an even larger time commitment and a more demanding workload. So I don’t see that there is any “free lunch” so to speak for BS students.</p>
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<p>At least, it should be a preparatory machine for the Ivy League. :D</p>
<p>Agree with Benley and Harvest Moon. Those are more finely tuned argument than the broad brush statement that prep schools hurt a student’s chances at Ivies. As HarvestMoon points out, they are great “preparatory machines” for selective colleges, Ivies included, and there are kids like mine for whom a boarding school education opens up many doors.</p>
<p>As the great majority of students attending an elite prep school would have graduated at or very near the top of their local high school, choosing to attend a prestigious prep school results in a lower GPA and class rank for most students no matter how one slices or dices matriculation statistics. </p>
<p>Take for example, the vaunted Ivy League/Stanford/MIT matriculation metric. A school that sends one-third of its graduating class to these elite colleges does exceedingly well indeed. But the picture looks less rosy when you factor the GPA/class rank variable that is widely regarded as the most important determinant of college admission. </p>
<p>Take for example, an unhooked student with a 2,300 SAT who matriculates to Cornell after graduating in the 40th percentile of his class at Andover. All other things being equal, wouldn’t this student have had a better chance of admission to a top-10 university or a top-5 LAC if he had been the valedictorian of his local high school? </p>
<p>Likewise, consider an unhooked student with a 2,100 SAT who matriculates to a top-100 university after graduating in the 80th percentile of his class at Exeter. All other things being equal, wouldn’t this student have had a better chance of admission to a top-50 or even a top-25 university if he had graduated at or very near the top of his local high school? </p>
<p>As these examples illustrate, all that glitters is not gold in prep school matriculation statistics. These statistics can mesmerize and seduce. But prospective prep school applicants and their parents would be well served to focus instead on the intrinsic value of a prep school education.</p>
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<p>What would that be? Whatever it is, it won’t make up for not going to a better school from the local PS.</p>
<p>jmilton, I think many people would agree on the “damaging effect” of rigorous schools to GPA and class ranking. However, if you are implying 80%+ of the students from Andover/Exeter (assuming we include - let’s say those who could’ve made to HYP ended up in other Ivies) made some sort of “sacrifice” in college outcomes, that may not be true. As pointed out in other posts, Andover AO is trying to form a balanced class taking different “interests” into consideration at the same time, instead of purely “recruiting” for top colleges. That means all students are not as intensely academic or as driven to work hard to reach the college stars to begin with. The stats of admitted students are somewhat misleading. First off, what’s their applicant pool? Is it drawing nearly as many top students from everywhere as the Ivy League schools? So admit rate only tells part of the story. Secondly, the 94% of median SSAT seems high but apparently this stat is highly skewed by some scores at the very high end (in that sense they indeed attracts the best). If you look at the school’s SAT stats, it’s not as impressive as the SSAT stats, compared with the SAT stats of admitted students in top colleges. As a matter of fact, if one is from a PS or a lower tiered PS, they might need higher SAT scores to get in the top colleges some Andover students did. Thirdly, it’s easy but not always right to think if one does well in middle school or even in earlier years of high school, one would keep the momentum to the end of the game. Often times, the junior year of high school would reshuffle big time. And it happens everywhere. If one stayed back in their local high school, they might still not be among the top few of their class that have a decent shot in top colleges.</p>
<p>That being said, I am not denying that to some students the true “damage” to college outcome is there. For example, some Asian students whose major strength is academic excellence may find it hard to distinguish themselves because there are many other Asian kids in their school are equally strong or stronger. But I don’t know to what extent that damaging effect is. As ORM, Asian kids face more intense competitions regardless where they go to school.</p>
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<p>This is sad because the Declaration of Independence document says that all people should be treated equally.</p>
<p>I think we can make the simplifying assumption that most students at elite prep schools forfeit the realistic possibility of graduating at or very near the top of their local high school class. This may not make a material difference for students graduating in the top ten percent or so of their class at schools such as Andover and Exeter. But it likely disadvantages a substantial percentage of the remaining students at these elite prep schools once they enter the college admissions process.</p>
<p>To be sure, there are many qualifying factors in this analysis. Some budding academic superstars burn out and never achieve their potential. Other students soar and become better candidates for college admission when they take advantage of the unique academic and extracurricular opportunities elite prep schools provide. Class rank is also only one of many college admission factors such as SAT scores, recommendations, essays, extracurricular activities, minority status, athletic recruitment, legacy status, etc. </p>
<p>Nevertheless, the intense rigor of admission to top prep schools provides a sound basis to hypothesize that many students at elite prep schools graduate with a lower class rank than they would have attained had they chosen to attend their local high school instead. And as grades are the most important factor in college admission, it’s thus fair to posit that students risk hurting their chances of college admission by electing to attend elite prep schools where highly challenging courses and stiff competition among top students make attaining good grades difficult. </p>
<p>Whether we like it or not, the days when Andover and Exeter were feeder schools to Yale and Harvard are long gone. As a result, overly focusing on matriculation statistics fuels the dream of Ivy matriculation that most students at even the best prep schools never realize. That’s why I believe it’s far better to turn one’s attention to the benefits of attending prep school. In short, don’t apply to a prep school because 33 percent of its graduates matriculate to an Ivy League school, Stanford, or MIT. Apply there because it will give you a great high school education that you can’t achieve at your local school.</p>
<p>^^Without the supporting data (which I am not sure we will ever get and much of it may not even exist), I don’t know how much more valid my analysis is than your assumptions. So I’ll rest my case. At least we can agree on this point: Don’t apply to a prep school because 33 percent of its graduates matriculate to an Ivy League school, Stanford, or MIT. Apply there because it will give you a great high school education that you can’t achieve at your local school.</p>
<p>A better question is if a good high school education is worth 200 grand. Geez, this is not even college to fork over 200 grand.</p>
<p>Couldn’t find it on “The News” archive of the Choate website. Specifically, number of enrollees (for class of 2013) at each of Harvard, Yale, etc.</p>
<p>Would love to know. gotta 4th former there now.</p>
<p>wayne22: Here is the tabulation from “The News” for the class of 2013 sorted by number of matriculants for those schools with multiples, then alphabetically for those schools with only one matriculant:</p>
<p>NYU 13
Yale 10
Brown University 9
Columbia University 8
Georgetown University 8
George Washington U 7
Harvard University 6
Tufts University 6
Amherst College 5
Boston University 5
Lehigh University 5
Northwestern University 5
Tulane University 5
University of Chicago 5
American University 4
Barnard College 4
Connecticut College 4
Williams College 4
Boston College 3
Bucknell University 3
Claremont McKenna 3
Colby College 3
Cornell University 3
Emory University 3
Johns Hopkins University 3
Junior Hockey 3
Middlebury College 3
MIT 3
Northeastern University 3
St. Lawrence University 3
Stanford 3
University of Richmond 3
Wesleyan University 3
Babson College 2
Bard College 2
Bowdoin College 2
College of William & Mary 2
Duke University 2
Franklin & Marshall 2
Lafayette College 2
Trinity College 2
UNC Chapel Hill 2
University of Connecticut 2
University of Georgia 2
University of Illinios - UC 2
University of Pennsylvania 2
University of St. Andrews 2
Washington University-St. Louis 2</p>
<p><a href=“alphabetical%20from%20here”>i</a>*
Bentley University 1
Binghamton University 1
Bishop’s University 1
Brandeis University 1
Bryant University 1
Carleton College 1
Case Western Reserve 1
Colgate 1
Colorado College 1
Colorado School of Mines 1
Dartmouth College 1
Davidson College 1
Drexel University 1
Emerson College 1
Emory University (Oxford College) 1
Gettysburg College 1
Graceland University 1
Grinell College 1
Hamilton College 1
Haverford College 1
Kenyon College 1
Manchester University 1
Massachusetts College of Art and Design 1
McGill University 1
Mount Holyoke College 1
Pomona College 1
Princeton University 1
Purdue University 1
Queen’s University 1
Reed 1
Rensselaer Polytechnic 1
Rollins College 1
Shrewsbury School 1
Smith College 1
St. Joseph’s University 1
St. Olaf College 1
The College of New Jersey 1
Trinity College - Dublin 1
U-C Berkeley 1
UCLA 1
Union College 1
University of Aberdeen 1
University of Arizona 1
University of Edinburgh 1
University of Notre Dame 1
University of Rochester 1
University of San Diego 1
University of Toronto 1
University of Washington 1
Univesity of Toronto 1
Unversity of Maryland 1
US Military Academy-West Point 1
USC 1
Vanderbilt University 1
Villanova University 1
Wake Forest 1
Wheaton College 1</p>