<p>D is having a very difficult time making up her mind on where to attend next fall. Back in my days, my gc had a thick book which gave the rankings of schools by dept or major (ex: top 20 in biology or chem or whatever). This would be very useful information to have as my D tries to build her +/- comparison list. However, her gc says he does not know of any such rankings. Do rankings like this exist anymore?</p>
<p>don't take it the wrong way, but buy the latest copy of US news report. They have rankings by majors.</p>
<p>well - several majors - but not alot</p>
<p>There may be rankings, but be careful. The perceptions of university departments are usually based on the calibre of the professors, and specifically their research, articles published, nobel prizes, field medals, etc. This has more application for PhD candidates than undergraduates. As an undergraduate, I appreciated having great teachers rather than great researchers.</p>
<p>So here's what I would look at:
1. Course Catalog for breadth and depth of courses offered in your prospective major.
2. Many colleges have a student rating system, where students rate their professors and classes. Ask to see it.
3. Try to find current or recent grads to hear what they have to say.
4. Check the college texts to see if the profs there wrote the book. In my experiences, the profs that wrote the texts that were used across the nation could also present interesting and dynamic lectures.</p>
<p>Also, keep in mind that your major is only a part of your studies. You will probably be taking approximately 2/3 of your classes in other departments. Plus your major may change! Mine did.</p>
<p>Don't take this the wrong way, but that is a really lame way to choose a college!</p>
<p>There are cases where a school will either have a particular strength in a department and/or a department that is too small to meet the needs of a specialized student, but some sort of generic "ranking" is too simplistic.</p>
<p>Most such "rankings" are based on graduate departments, which are virtually meaningless to an undergrad. Even then, the "rankings" are frequently based on the number pages published per professor in the department, which is about as silly as anything I've very heard. "Acme University: our professors are the most long-winded in the country!" Or, "Podunk University: We Use Bigger Fonts!"</p>
<p>There are lists that rank schools in per capita production of PhDs. by field. However, these are still only useful in making broad comparisons. For example, it's probably a safe bet that the school ranked #1 in Poli Schi PhD production (Swarthmore) has a more rigorous department than the school ranked #100. But, I think it would be ridiculous to think that the professors and students in the poli sci department at the #10 school (Amherst) wouldn't be every bit as good. The difference is that Amherst poli sci majors tend to go to get law or MBA degrees more often than Swarthmore students, who tend to get PhDs more often than Amherst grads. </p>
<p>Now, that's a meaningful "big-picture" difference in college culture that is worth considering. But, it's not going to come from department rankings.</p>
<p>Additionally, you have to figure the type of school. A small school, like a Swarthmore, is always going to have a higher per capita PhD. production rate than a Berekely, just because the student body has a concentration of very academically-oriented kids that would be impossible to achieve at a state school. But, what difference does that make to a student who prefers the "big-city" vibe of a large state university?</p>
<p>Thanks for the input. Tactics22- very useful, constructive ideas. Interesteddad- I realize the limitations of such rankings. My d is making a list of pros and cons of multiple aspects of the schools she is choosing between. She is not basing her decision on one aspect.</p>
<p>I guess I was trying to politely suggest that maybe Mom needs to step in and focus the decision on big picture, important stuff rather than microscopic minutia.</p>
<p>Assuming D is choosing among several reasonably comparable schools, which does she prefer on the big stuff:</p>
<p>Size
Location
Diversity of student body
Type of students (preppie, geeky, rich, poor, cliquey, quirky, grinds, slackers, whatever)
Drinking scene
Greek prevalence</p>
<p>These are issues that are going to have far more impact on being happy (if she chooses well) or miserable (if she chooses poorly). I just think that people use "rankings" as a crutch to avoid the question, "what do I really want from a college experience?"</p>
<p>Ccgmom, Youre referring to a choice between two acceptances, right, not a future application? </p>
<p>I think one of the best ways to evaluate the strength of a specific department is to cruise through the course catalog on-line. It will show you the number of classes offered each semester, the level of intensity and in many cases the size of the class. The titles of the courses can tell you a lot too. E.g., do they sound appealing? Are they excessively PC? Is there a good balance of introductory and advanced? If its a university, can undergrads take graduate level course? Is there a good balance of types of classes large lectures, seminars, laboratories, tutorials.</p>
<p>Id also look at the profiles of the instructors, their educational background (degree and college attended), the size of the department (in comparison to others at the college which is an indication of funding). How many instructors are visiting and how many are on leave? Again, if its a university are the courses taught by professors or teaching assistants.</p>
<p>If your daughter is interested in an advanced degree, she could also ask the individual departments what their students do after graduation </p>
<p>Does the department offer research positions? Are there other related extracurricular opportunities? </p>
<p>I would also contact the career counseling service either on line or by e-mail and ask them what kind of internships, summer jobs or other type of contacts offered kids in this field.</p>
<p>If youd like to reveal the specific colleges in question Im sure someone here would have firsthand experience.</p>
<p>There is such a resource, although it may be dated at this point. Three years ago, we asked our guidance couselor for some type of guide to help choose schools with Robotics. He suggested Rugg's guide. It is more comprehensive than the USNews outline. I don't remember the full name, but the librarian was able to find it, based on just "Rugg's Guide". It lists and ranks colleges by major, and divides them according to selectivity. It was a very helpful book to just find which colleges even had Robotics programs. I'm sure you can do the same with a guided Google search, but a Google search won't give any indication of the relative strength of the programs you find. It didn't matter which was #1 vs. #15. We basically wanted help finding programs in which different colleges excelled. We were then able to cross-reference with other subjects my son was interested in at the time. It turned out he did not pursue the robotics interest, but it was a great resource at the time.</p>
<p>After being on CC for awhile, you begin to pick up which colleges excel with certain programs. Some are well-known by the general public (ie. MIT: Engineering/Math/Tech, or JohnsHopins:anything Medical)., but some are not (ie. OU & Communications or Kenyon:English). The Ruggs guide was at least a start to find which programs are strong in various colleges. However, I also think it is better used as an initial guide, rather than for making final decisions.</p>
<p>From an article directed to admitted students in today's Yale Daily News:</p>
<p>"In the end, for many of us, the reasons we came here are far different from the reasons we love it. You may come to New Haven thinking you are a pre-med, and leave as an English major; you may have acted in high school, but find your passion in intramural inner-tube water polo...."</p>
<p>I, myself, would not rely on any ratings or rankings in making a final decision between two (or three) schools. The rankings don't tell you beans about what it will actually be like to be a student at that school.
A much better choice is to ask admissions for the name of a faculty member in that department that you can call and talk to one-on-one. Ask these types of questions: how many majors are in the department, what are the special features/resources of the department, what opportunities are there for undergraduates to do research (and ask if he can tell you about several undergraduates that he has actually done work with or is aware of - what were their projects), how many undergrad students have participated in national conferences or been published in journals related to the subject's focus in the past year, are classes taught by TA's and if so, what percentage of department classes are taught by TA's, what is the average size of classes in that specific department, and how hard is it to get into classes (are their caps on the number of students that can get in), how many classes does the department offer in a typical semester (These last questions can also sometimes be answered by doing a search on the web site for the school's online registration search form). You might also ask if he could give you the emails of several majors and ask them for details.</p>
<p>Ultimately, however, something like 60% of kids change their major at least once so I would not be overly concerned with the specifics of a particular department (unless there are glaring difficiencies) but more concerned with the OVERALL quality of academics and student engagement and happiness throughout the school.</p>
<p>If your daughter still feels the need for rankings, she should know that Rugg's, mentioned above, is updated annually but it is not a ranking. It only lists colleges that have good programs in various departments. I have found some errors in the information (i.e., colleges listed under a major that they don't have) but it is a useful tool for drawing up an initial list. It may reassure your daughter to see the schools on the list for her potential major.</p>
<p>The Gourman Report of undergraduate programs does rank individual departments but it VERY out of date (I think 1997 is the last issue) and it's methodology is somewhat suspect. It also focuses primarily on research universities so it is limited. It is available, for a huge price, from Amazon. </p>
<p>And, some have already mentioned US News & World report - but many of their specific department ranking are for graduate level students, undergrads may have a very different experience. It can be useful, however, to use the grad school rankings to look at faculty bio's --- if a majority have received their PHD from a top ranked grad program, that is a good sign.</p>
<p>Again, the best bet is direct information. Only by actually talking with at least one (or more) faculty member is she really going to get a sense of whether a school will meet her needs.</p>
<p>momrath- she has a few choices and has narrowed the list to ND and Bowdoin. My d is a tck- she is very adaptable; therefore, has no preference over the LAC vs. university experience. She can see herself fitting in either. She does research at ND already (biochem) and loves the campus. She spent 4 days at Bowdoin and loved it as well! She's leaning towards neurosci if she goes to Bowdoin and already spoke to a prof about research possibilities. She really enjoyed the friendliness of the students at Bowdoin, but also has many connections at ND already. She's very much struggling with the decision.</p>
<p>ccgmom, I don't have any advice to offer except to say, congratulations! Two great schools.</p>