Bush to veto new bill to help students

Parents Forum
1

<p>Just when it looks like students are going to get a break Dubya is showing his true colors - again. He is the Decider after all.</p>

<p>
[quote]
"This bill is a remarkable step forward in our efforts to help every qualified student go to college," said Rep. George Miller (D-Calif.), chairman of the House Education and Labor Committee and author of the legislation. "With this bill, we are saying that no one should be denied the opportunity to go to college simply because of the price."</p>

<p>Here's a rundown of the other student benefits in the bill:</p>

<p>• The maximum Pell Grant, the largest need-based student grant, would increase from the current $4,050 to $5,200 by 2011-2012. </p>

<p>• Student loan interest rates would be gradually cut, from 6.8 percent to 3.4 percent by 2013-2014. </p>

<p>• Federal loan limits would increase so students don't have to take out as many expensive private loans.</p>

<p>• Working students could earn more without being penalized.</p>

<p>• New loan forgiveness programs would be established for early childhood educators, nurses, foreign language specialists, librarians, certain teachers, child welfare workers, speech language pathologists, National Service participants, and public sector employees.</p>

<p>• TEACH, a tuition assistance program for undergrads and grads who commit to teaching in a high-needs area for four years, would also be established. </p>

<p>• A guaranteed $500 million would be set aside over five years for historically and predominately African American institutions, tribal colleges, and institutions for Alaskan and Hawaiian natives. </p>

<p>

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</p>

<p><a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/expert/article/generationdebt/39453%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://finance.yahoo.com/expert/article/generationdebt/39453&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
The House passed a student-loan bill Wednesday that would boost college financial aid by about $18 billion over the next five years and cut federal subsidies to lenders.</p>

<p>On Tuesday, the White House threatened to veto the House bill, claiming that it fails to help the neediest college students and creates programs with long-term costs for taxpayers.

[/quote]
</p>

<p><a href="http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/white-house-threatens-veto-college-aid/story.aspx?guid=%7BF280B5F8-7512-4A30-AB5F-811A14A7A648%7D%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/white-house-threatens-veto-college-aid/story.aspx?guid=%7BF280B5F8-7512-4A30-AB5F-811A14A7A648%7D&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

2

<p>I agree with 'dubya' - it looks like a costly bill with items in it that shouldn't be there.</p>

<ul>
<li><p>When the student pays back the loan, why shouldn't they pay the prevailing rate? They don't need a taxpayer subsidy once they start the payback.</p></li>
<li><p>Why should a guaranteed $500 Million go to 'historically...' minority colleges? I'd rather see funds go to help needy college students regardless of their race and regardless of whether they attend a historcally minority institution or some other institution.</p></li>
<li><p>Why so much in the way of 'loan forgiveness'? IMO there shouldn't be 'any' loan forgiveness unless it's in the form of essentially pay for people who perform public service.</p></li>
<li><p>Why reward people that run up loan bills yet choose careers that don't pay or choose to earn little money and therefore think they shouldn't have to pay back what was to be a loan - not a giveaway?</p></li>
</ul>

<p>Let the legislators go back and draft a better bill that better targets the perceived problem.</p>

3

<p>The last point is the main flaw in the bill. Bush says he would rather see more money go to Pell Grants, though in most cases it isn't the smart, poor people (who solely receive Pell Grants) that are suffering as they receive nice FA but rather the middle class. As such, helping these students not fall into a mountain of inescapable debt would be best but closing the gap so people don't pay the minimum for 20 years and get out debt free is also necessary. IMO, this is a step in the right direction. It's sad to see a bill that can and will likely be revised into a landmark for education already being threatened out of existence by Dubya, and for lackluster reasons:</p>

<p>
[quote]
According to Secretary of Education Margaret Spellings, too much of the bill focuses on borrower repayment rather than grants -- a funny statement coming from an administration that's held the Pell Grant frozen at its current level since 2003.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>On another note, shares of Sallie Mae have fallen 10%.</p>

4

<p>U-U-Dad - In a world where a college degree is the "new high school diploma" - i.e., the basic qualification for most careers - why do we structure our educational system so that many kids start out their adult lives tens - and even hundreds - of thousands of dollars in debt? You load sixteen tons, and what'ya get? Looks like just another way to increase the already too large and steadily widening gap between the have-a-lots and the have-somes and have-littles.</p>

5

<p>Wow

[QUOTE]

  • Why reward people that run up loan bills yet choose careers that don't pay or choose to earn little money and therefore think they shouldn't have to pay back what was to be a loan - not a giveaway?

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>How do I even respond to this? You really need to get a clue. Typical of the Bush narrow mined piece of **** to veto this bill.</p>

6

<p>
[quote]
* Why reward people that run up loan bills yet choose careers that don't pay or choose to earn little money and therefore think they shouldn't have to pay back what was to be a loan - not a giveaway?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Someone should give up teaching as a career because it doesn't pay enough to pay the loan bill?</p>

7

<p>kluge:
Without a line item veto one must approve the entire bill or reject it so it can go back and be re-written. It makes no sense to approve the bill when it includes expensive items that the President feels will be costly and not be focused on the target audience of the bill. I understand that some may feel that all items on the bill are worthy but if the President doesn't feel they 'all' are and that some of those items will have an economic impact, then he should veto it.</p>

<p>BlackBRich:
Why do you say that a teaching career doesn't pay enough to pay back college loans? I think it does for most. </p>

<p>Oiram:
How to respond to this? You could try to present a sound argument rather than an empty response.</p>

8

<p>It just seems to me that the administration is trying to find any reason to veto such a bill. Why stop now? Rampant spending has been the mantra of the Bush administration, particularly for war and his cronies, yet something that truly benefits the nation - education - is threatened with a veto? Sad indeed, especially when the reasoning (more money should go to Pell grants) is flawed. Anybody with a brain can see that it is the middle class that suffers the most from college tuition. Those poor enough to receive the Pell Grant in the first place will also typically receive generous financial aid from other sources.</p>

9

<p>
[quote]
U-U-Dad - In a world where a college degree is the "new high school diploma" - i.e., the basic qualification for most careers - why do we structure our educational system so that many kids start out their adult lives tens - and even hundreds - of thousands of dollars in debt? You load sixteen tons, and what'ya get? Looks like just another way to increase the already too large and steadily widening gap between the have-a-lots and the have-somes and have-littles.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>True, but what would you suggest? Transforming the way we (mostly) fund K-12 to a K-16 system? </p>

<p>Isn't the real issue that makes the cost of education for lower and middle class so hard the rampant inflation of a system that has been known to get vast amounts of money without much of any accountability? </p>

<p>Regarding the Bill and its possible veto, it's very easy to find criticism, especially when wearing ultra-partisan blinders. The same was true will all the hoopla surrounding the changes in interest rates and the famous 12B or 14B "cuts."</p>

<p>Fwiw, the continuous funding of our current public education system is a looming problem, and a disaster of epic dimensions when measured in quality of output per dollar spent. Blindly throwing more money at a system is rarely the best option, yet that is what most states and locals administrations are and have been doing with quasi impunity. </p>

<p>If increasing Pell grants and forfeiting a portion of the interest due on loans does not come with similar cost freezing, it is all for naught! </p>

<p>In the meantime, if it makes people feel better to criticizing every action of the President, by all means, go for it. After that, you may have more energy to read up on the subject of education funding. Not a bad thing!</p>

10

<p>ucsd<em>ucla</em>dad, the respond wasn't empty but shocking. Under your assumption, everyone have clear choice of their future career choice...which is untrue. When one do even receive a college education and job that an individual may want (which may or may not pay enough to pay back the loans) is not presented to a person, then what do you propose a person to do? Sell drugs I guess, because it is "a high paying job". </p>

<p>Some type of loan system should be set up for public service persons and people who can't afford to payback their loans. Whether the bill address the correct way to do is a matter of debate; however, it is the first attempt I have ever seen to address a major issues that is going to be affecting my generation. Also, i wonder what time did you go to school? </p>

<p>Xiggi, on some levels education spending on a local level is not spread out evenly per school so this may have averse affects on the quality of education of a student in school district.</p>

11

<p>As someone who is an educator....we make enough to pay off our loans, but I am not going on any exciting vacations in the near future! Educators are horribly underpaid for the amount of education, especially in California, that is required. When I went to college, California had the incredible California State scholarship program... not today:( Grad school is costing a fortune! Thank God for a private scholarship. As an administrator, I do everything i can to find funds for my teachers to return to school because on their salary, it is impossible. It would be nice if there were more ways to help them.</p>

12

<p>JC*, would you mind sharing how grossly underpaid teachers are in your district? I understand you qualified that statement with "for the level of education required." Do you have comparisons with other professions that require similar levels of education? </p>

<p>And, of course, a comparison on a per hour worked basis would be nice! And one that includes all benefits even nicer.</p>

13

<p>I haven't read the bill, so will not express an opinion on it.<br>
I just wanted to provide some data. According to salary.com, the median pay for a high school teacher is about 50k. A new teacher makes closer to $35k. Public service employees are required to be residents of Boston where a 1-bedroom apartment rents about $1,500 per month. The COA at U-Mass is about $20k per year, for a 4-year total of $80k; teacher certification would cost another $10k or more. Assuming that a student borrowed half of the total amount, the new teacher would need to begin repaying $45k on a starting salary of $35k.</p>

14

<p>I am SURE you can find apts cheaper than $1500 for a 1 br. You could get a 2 BR and share as mmost starting workers do. Also you can go to a local Boston state school for far less than $20K a year if you commute. Many many college students commute from home to save money.</p>

15

<p>I agree with all this, Barrons. But is it any wonder that k-12 teachers by and large do not come from the more selective and expensive colleges?<br>
When MA instituted exams for the about to graduate students at schools of education, only one institution had a 100% pass rate. The Harvard Graduate School of Education. Some had abysmal pass rates.</p>

16

<p>Marite, thanks for the information regarding Boston.</p>

<p>Could it be possible that salary.com averages the salaries from public educators with the private sector? </p>

<p>You're correct that the Cost of Living in the North East is extremely high. However, in one of the "least wealthy" towns of the United States, namely El Paso, Texas, there's has been a shortage of teachers and the school districts are forced to recruit out of State, as well as in Mexico. It should be noted that the salaries offered to Mexican teachers are 8 to 10 times higher than their salaries in Mexico. </p>

<p>If teachers indeed are making $35,000 and have to spend a fortune on lodging, they may consider a state that does not impose income taxes and seems to pay its teachers ... much better. </p>

<p>
[quote]
SISD raises 1st-year pay for teachers by $2,000</p>

<p>By Gustavo Reveles Acosta / El Paso Times
Article Launched: 07/18/2007 12:00:00 AM MDT</p>

<p>Beginning teachers in the Socorro Independent School District will earn $42,134 in the coming academic year.
Source: <a href="http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_6399810%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_6399810&lt;/a>

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</p>

<p>El Paso faces a similar problem for its police officers. The salaries for police officers are, however, about $10,000 lower than for beginning teachers. The biggest problem for the police corps is that only 10% of applicants can pass the academic and physical tests. </p>

<p>I wonder what would happen if teachers had to pass academic tests. Oh wait, they do and flunk in great numbers. By the way, has superintendent Wilfredo T. Laboy finally passed the Communications and Literacy Skills Test three times in Massachusetts. The test Laboy failed assesses fundamental reading and writing skills expected of all entry-level teachers, including vocabulary, punctuation, grammar, spelling and capitalization.</p>

<p>PS The cost of earning teacher's credential at UTEP is not very high. Most students use federal and state aid to graduate debt free.</p>

17

<p>Just a few of my thoughts in response to the points made by ucsd<em>ucla</em>dad.</p>

<ul>
<li>When the student pays back the loan, why shouldn't they pay the prevailing rate? They don't need a taxpayer subsidy once they start the payback.</li>
</ul>

<p>I'm assuming that this refers to the cutting of interest rates on federal student loans (and not something else in the article that I missed), and I think this is needed for several reasons. For most students, federal loans only cover a portion of the total loans they take out (meaning they'll be paying back plenty of other loans at the "prevailing rate", or higher, because they don't have established credit and so suffer from higher interest rates), and even some federal loans start accruing interest while the student is enrolled, but may be unable to work in order to start paying off this interest. Also, considering how little most people make at entry level jobs right out of college (Marite's post #13), I would think that it would be difficult for most, if not all students, to pay back loans for the amount most have to take out today.</p>

<ul>
<li>Why should a guaranteed $500 Million go to 'historically...' minority colleges? I'd rather see funds go to help needy college students regardless of their race and regardless of whether they attend a historcally minority institution or some other institution.</li>
</ul>

<p>From what I gathered, the financial support would be going to the institutions themselves (whether to support financial aid packages given to students, the cost of upgrading facilities, or other financial needs doesn't seem to be specified), and since many of these institutions have suffered from lower endowments and financial problems, and draw in a large number of minority students, it seems to me important that these colleges and universities receive some form of assitance. Whether or not money alone will work, or be beneficial to ensuring the long-term stability of these institutions is not something I understand well enough to be able to speak to, but I think the intentions are good.</p>

<p>The next two questions I'm going to combine because I think my response to both is pretty much the same.</p>

<ul>
<li>Why so much in the way of 'loan forgiveness'? IMO there shouldn't be 'any' loan forgiveness unless it's in the form of essentially pay for people who perform public service.</li>
</ul>

<p>+</p>

<ul>
<li>Why reward people that run up loan bills yet choose careers that don't pay or choose to earn little money and therefore think they shouldn't have to pay back what was to be a loan - not a giveaway?</li>
</ul>

<p>Every career that was listed as being one to benefit from loan forgiveness is one that is generally considered to be underpaid and in high demand. Unfortunately, not many people (or not enough) are chosing to go into these fields because they are underpaid - hence the reason why something like 1/3 of college students declare business majors. These types of programs aren't new (consider Americorps and the Peace Corps loan forgiveness policies), the bill really only proposes to expand them to entice people to accept careers with a lower salary - one which probably would not pay back their undergraduate loans. If you think that most students have no concern for their financial futures - you're wrong. I'm sorry, but so many fields and professions are suffering because of the mentality that if it isn't high paying and beneficial to the economy, it isn't neccessary (you might refer to some of the posts on the graduate school forum regarding the need for tenure to safegaurd fields of study that the government might no longer find to be beneficial).</p>

<p>Granted, you might dismiss all of my responses, and that's fine. But I think many college students, like myself, are sick of having to be defensive of their less lucrative majors and intended careers. It's frustrating to me that those that support Bush can support our taxes being squandered on military spending, and can't support a bill (whose total cost would never come close to his military spending) that would benefit education.</p>

18

<p>Before it gets too far, I'd like to add that my "beef" is not with the teachers nor with their level of salaries. I have stated many times that teachers are as victimized by the current system of public education as families and students are. </p>

<p>For instance, the ratio of teacher's salaries versus administrative costs is abysmal. Districts engage in recruiting battles for superintendent with the only result of ridiculous salaries --having to overcome that many candidates do not pass criminal background checks. For example, unless it changed, the flunking Laboy was the highest paid public employee in his district, and maybe in all of Mass. Locally, we have administrators who earn salaries worth 2 or 3 times the average price of a home.</p>

19

<p>
[quote]
In the meantime, if it makes people feel better to criticizing every action of the President, by all means, go for it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Believe me, criticism is not without merit. The reasons given by this administration are quite weak and hypocritical, to say the least.</p>

<p>EDIT: </p>

<p>
[quote]
It's frustrating to me that those that support Bush can support our taxes being squandered on military spending, and can't support a bill (whose total cost would never come close to his military spending) that would benefit education.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Bravo to srcameron's post. Very well put.</p>

20

<p>For those interested, here is a link to the bill. It seems the Senate is calling for it to be amended, as of now. Hopefully it will end up pleasing both sides in the end. Regardless of party, it is an excellent endeavor.</p>

<p><a href="http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:h.r.02669:%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:h.r.02669:&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>EDIT: Here is a link to the estimated cost:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/83xx/doc8303/hr2669Ryanltr.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/83xx/doc8303/hr2669Ryanltr.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>