My kiddo got fullride at SCU and got off waitlist with WashU with no funding. Has decided to consider one of these two among other school. Specifically, Business School: Leavey (SCU) and Olin (WashU)
Some thoughts we have
- WashU is ranked #7 in PQ and SCU is ranked #33.
- WashU is ranked #2 for job placement in PQ and SCU is #31
- SCU ranks in mid 20s for teaching quality in US News, WashU actually ranks lower (thinking its because there is more focus in Research and Masters and students interested in that, where as SCU is more undergrad focused and hence teachers are more focused on teaching?)
- SCU screams location, location, location + tuition free (250K less over 4 years of education). WashU screams reputation, reputation, reputation not just amongst ranking but also in the industry (a dent on wallet)
- I have had people say, if you can afford then go for it. But its not only about affordability, its also being wise, for Undergrad, while one school is ranked higher, I feel the difference is not large enough to warrant such a large investment. I jokingly say, you are going into Biz school to learn financial discipline, making correct investments, and then would it make sense to actually spend 250K more to gain that education? Does that really give that big a pop?
- I must say WashU has always been my kiddos Dream school, and I am trying to avoid an emotional decision
- Another way to look at it is, I can manage this saved money on behalf of my kiddo and right off the gate after graduation come out with 250K+gains through investments done using learnings from the education gained (with my guidance and gating/managing $$).
- The fear we have is what if the education quality is significantly higher at WashU over SCU (note that education here = teaching and actual learning, I am not referring to Research work because my kiddo is not interested in Research or papers and is purely learn from job skills and good education standpoint)
- Kiddo feels after putting in all the effort to have awesome academics (being straight A student, 35 ACT, passionately pursued interests in other areas and won awards), and after all this got into the dream school and now give up? Feels wasted? To this I have said yielding a full ride is the reward.
- One question that keeps coming, is there a significant difference is quality of education from a top 10 and anything lower in ranking, specifically here the ranking in 30s for that school, and overall school ranking in 50s?
- With COVID, schooling experience will be impacted, who knows what the job scenes will be 4 years from now, on one hand being in Silicon valley is good (SCU), but at the same time coming out from a highly ranked school with strong placement reputation is also important (WashU). So, a bit torn from that standpoint
- People talk about networking being important and I agree, and I see WashU giving alum connections, maybe stronger than SCU, but then SCU gives proximity to Silicon Valley, so he can actually connect with real people while in school, go to various meetups and events outside of school (lot harder in WashU because of its location) and kiddo has $$ to spend (savings from not spending on tuition) and even travel to industry events and gain exposure (but this requires time and effort investment). So, my kiddo has to make use of this effort and opportunity through own drive.
Wanted to get the thoughts of others in this forum and see if this makes sense or are there other things to consider, is our viewpoint narrow, love to hear both agreements and even better counter thoughts you might have.
Thank you for taking the time. Hoping to hear lively feedback and discussion!
From a completely unemotional rational perspective, SCU with a full-ride is the no-brainer decision.
Being located on SV is a big plus and their alums do well there.
“The fear we have is what if the education quality is significantly higher at WashU over SCU (note that education here = teaching and actual learning, I am not referring to Research work because my kiddo is not interested in Research or papers and is purely learn from job skills and good education standpoint)”
I very much doubt it. Some research U’s care more about undergrad teaching than others, but all of the top ones promote and grant tenure based mostly on research output.
In any case, what my mom said is true (though I didn’t want to listen at the time either): A person doesn’t become educated because of teaching quality; a person becomes educated because they want to learn. And there’s a great relatively cheap way to become educated called reading books.
“Kiddo feels after putting in all the effort to have awesome academics (being straight A student, 35 ACT, passionately pursued interests in other areas and won awards), and after all this got into the dream school and now give up? Feels wasted? To this I have said yielding a full ride is the reward.”
I agree with you. The SCU full-ride is a huge noteworthy reward which probably would make his resume stand out more than a degree from WashU. There are a good number of schools at the SCU level, but all of them give out a relatively tiny number of full-rides. I am certain there are fewer merit full-rides given out by schools at SCU’s level (and higher) than there are slots at WashU’s level (and higher). This isn’t a full-ride to Podunk U.
What kiddo needs to examine is why does he feel the emotions he does and why does he want to go in to business? Someone who is emotional rather than rational in his decision-making is going to make a lousy investor or businessman. Is he sure he is cut out for that field? Is he affected by peer pressure? Insecure? At least in investing, those are lousy traits to have as well and lead to underperforming returns.
As you yourself noted, $250K compounding at a relatively conservative 5% real rate per year will become $1.76mm in today’s dollars in 40 years. Pretty much enough to retire on before 60. And that’s counting on zero earnings and saving from his career (he’d just have to make enough to support himself).
Also, you can do a lot else with $250K. Seed funding for a business; use a portion to travel the world; pay for part/all of a top MBA program (I’d personally have a degree from SCU and M7 MBA than just an undergrad degree from WashU); all of the above.
By all accounts, many students love the WashU undergrad experience, but only someone who hasn’t had to work to earn $250K would feel that the difference between a full-ride at SCU and WashU would be worth the difference.
Honestly, I think that’s how privates have been able to jack up tuition rates so high: because they get 18 year-olds (not typically known for thinking along a decades-long horizon and nearly all have not had to work hard to support themselves and still save up $250K) to fall in love and make emotional decisions about college in a way that, to people from some other countries (such as Malcolm Gladwell from Canada), seems somewhat ridiculous.
Thanks PurpleTitan!
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In any case, what my mom said is true (though I didn't want to listen at the time either): A person doesn't become educated because of teaching quality; a person becomes educated because they want to learn. And there's a great relatively cheap way to become educated called reading books.
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Well said!
Love your Podunk reference, I was nodding in agreement as I read it
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What kiddo needs to examine is why does he feel the emotions he does and why does he want to go in to business? Someone who is emotional rather than rational in his decision-making is going to make a lousy investor or businessman. Is he sure he is cut out for that field? Is he affected by peer pressure? Insecure? At least in investing, those are lousy traits to have as well and lead to underperforming returns.
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I hear you, but he is a kiddo after all :-). Seriously, in all honesty, he has been making many points along the same lines, we both discuss things like friends and we never agree with each other for the sake, we have to be convinced of one another, have an analytical mindset and so he has been with me all along. In fact he said why do you want to post this, because we have done so much thinking and have settled, to that I said, we both have similar mind set and I dont want it to be a decision made without getting a general opinion. It will be reassuring if others agree, at the same time it will be good to look at it from all perspectives before making the final decision, because one decided, I hate turning back and regretting as that doesnt serve any purpose.
A little background. Grew up in St. Louis and know it well. I’ve been admitted for both the law and MBA program at WashU, but turned both down. It’s a beautiful campus and the area surrounding it is nice. But it is not a college town. Very good reputation, especially in medicine. St. Louis has a good amount of business, but it is no Silicon Valley. Many of the town’s major businesses have been acquired or merged, so the school relies on its national reputation.
My next door neighbor is a structural engineer that raves about his college experience at SCU. It is such a beautiful campus. While San Jose and Santa Clara is also not a college town, there are enough schools nearby to have fun, if you even need to leave campus. And you are right in the heart of Silicon Valley. If you kiddo wants to work in tech, you are right where you want to be. Chances are if they are giving them such a big scholarship, they have an investment in them and will treat them right. We faced the same decision with our DD this year, and she picked a full tuition ride over a higher ranked school.
Rankings and reputation are overblown IMHO. I find it hard to understand how ANY school is worth $250K more, not even an Ivy. And while WashU is great, it ain’t even an Ivy. Seems a slam dunk to me. SCU.
One other idea…split the $250K difference, and tell them if they go to SCU, you will give them $100-$125K upon graduation for grad school, a car, down payment on a home, etc. Who would you rather give your money to–a distant school, or your own child?
Thanks @SBDAD12, for reinforcing our thoughts…especially providing context from your experience. We have been to WashU, but we couldnt go to SCU and were hoping to go there after the offer and then COVID came in. We are going in blind based on what others have said about SCU, like its campus…we are enamored by their ethos around growing or educating the whole person, doing good to the society at large. It was also interesting to hear that a very small % of people have undergrad education in this world and they ask how will you positively contribute to make this world a better place.
@phatpuppy, SCU is a stunning campus. A friend told me it looks like a mini Stanford and I would agree. I’m not even sure the pictures do it justice. It certainly isn’t a big school, but it would be a really nice place to spend four years. And yes, I have heard the same about its ethos of doing good. We need this more than ever, and I try to impart this on my own kids.
Thanks @sbdad12 …that is what we hear as well.
Santa Clara seems like the obvious choice. I know lots of people who graduated from there, and they all seem to be doing pretty well with life after college. The current governor of California (who I’m not a big fan of) graduated from SCU, as did past governor Jerry Brown.
I will say I think the SCU campus is rather bland.
I guess my question is why did you save up 250k expecting to use it for your son’s college education and now you changed your mind?
I can understand if you don’t have the money saved and would have to take out loans for WashU than it’s a no-brainer, go to SCU all day long but didn’t you save that kind of money to give your kid the best college options so he didn’t have to “settle” on the best price option?
Also, there is something to be said about attending college with your academic peers and he would get that at WashU. At SCU he would be in the top 1% of his freshman class. Will there be enough highly motivated, exceptional kids like your son to challenge him?
I truly believe that an excellent college education stays with you the rest of your life and is not just about a financial return on your investment. I can’t think of a better way to use your money than on the best college education you can give your kids.
I always ask myself if you take away the cost of college, which college would be the better fit, where would the student best thrive, will they be excited to attend this college, will the student be happiest at college A over college B, and the key is “why”.
If picking college was just about the cheapest option than almost every kid should live at home, go to a community college for 2 years and transfer to their cheapest state option, right? You could invest that money saved and have $1 million in 40 years as @PurpleTitan suggested. But did that kid maximize their academic potential?
With that said, I personally don’t think WashU is worth 250K, if the choice was UPenn Wharton than in my opinion it might be worth every penny to attend it over SCU.
Just some food got thought…
Agree that SCU is a no-brainer (unless you are independently wealthy). WashU is an excellent Uni, but it’s still a regional b-school. (I disagree with p&q on this.) Plus, the Jesuit’s do education well.
hint: since this is B-school, run the ROI.
@socaldad, thanks for your counter thoughts. It helps me recalibrate. Yes we have saved up money to fund my kiddos college expense. However, thanks to my kiddos performance, he was able to get a fullride to a very good school, although is ranked 25 spots below WashU. Some of the things he cares for is small class size, good teaching, good dorms and food, and he gets all of this in both schools.
This is a good question:
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Also, there is something to be said about attending college with your academic peers and he would get that at WashU. At SCU he would be in the top 1% of his freshman class. Will there be enough highly motivated, exceptional kids like your son to challenge him?
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Frankly, this is what I was trying to get a sense for, is the difference that significant at undergrad level? How much is one losing out? We took the viewpoint that they are not that significantly different to warrant that additional cost.
What WashU provides was the ranking and potentially be surrounded by higher caliber teacher and students. This is when the counter thoughts kicked in, things like “opportunities and location” and the idea of “what you make out of opportunities given is more important” . The thing that concerned me with WashU was the location. Being in the heart of silicon valley, one can network, connect and create opportunities. Rather than purely depend on electronic networking and job fairs. Having the convenience of being able to go to various meetups, or the ease for industry leaders to walk into the school and present, connect, is much easier, natural and prevalent if the location is Silicon Valley. In person interaction is powerful (IMHO)
I think both schools deliver on the ask for the below question you pose and this is not a concern we have:
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I truly believe that an excellent college education stays with you the rest of your life and is not just about a financial return on your investment. I can’t think of a better way to use your money than on the best college education you can give your kids.
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Looks like you eventually agree with the decision based on your final comment and that is where we ended up, especially and strictly between the two schools as options.
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With that said, I personally don’t think WashU is worth 250K, if the choice was UPenn Wharton than in my opinion it might be worth every penny to attend it over SCU.
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@bluebayou - your hint is a very important one. I am simply not built to spend because I have saved or can afford to. I always believe in spending when it makes sense. thats the whole ROI idea, and so important when you run a business, and going into business school, you are applying that to your own life without compromising on college life and experience, which includes about building lasting relationships. And when you think from this standpoint, its hard to convince spending that additional $$.
@simba9, I did not know about Jerry Brown being an SCU grad. SCU campus being bland also is something I have not heard, I guess time will tell how my kiddo feels, he is super excited and hopes there is in person school this fall!
SCU, hands down. His teachers will include Silicon Valley execs and he will have opportunities to intern at some of the world’s most innovative companies. AND he’ll graduate debt free with a nice fund for grad school, should he be interested.
Silicon Valley companies are full of SCU grads who have done well. I know of at least one CFO and one CEO at a well-known tech company and dozens more in senior positions (if not quite C-suite) at other companies. Lots of opportunities to study and work abroad, too, and a school culture that emphasizes purpose and service.
Better weather, too.
Leavey School of Business is well-known in the valley. I agree with the post to spend the money for grad school. Maybe, he’ll go to Wharton for grad school. Good luck!
Thanks @CaliMex and @SiValMom for your inputs. Its great to hear you echo the thoughts we have about what to expect from being part of SCU!