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<p>Yes. I took four total semesters of biology plus one of biochemistry; a biology major would have taken much more.</p>
<p>I believe this option is not for most of Mount Sinai Med incoming class. The school try to promote liberal arts appoarch for certain type of students who lean more into humanities major. But these students accepted into this route will have to attend Mt Sinai in summer time for Orgo and Physic, and hospital Intern. Students have to be major in Social Sciences or Humanities.</p>
<p>^ If I remember correctly, BDM also took animal physiology and the “honor” physics intead of “premed” physics.</p>
<p>DS, a biology major, even did not take physiology as an UG. But I heard he did just fine in his physiology class in med school – This is because he once mentioned he received the highest grade in that particular class. (However, I do not know how he would know, as students at his school do not have preclinical year grades.) </p>
<p>I think he will likely start to suffer in clinical years. Those who excel in the preclinical years may not do well as compared to many humanity majors – after all, unlike science major premeds, they have discussed and wrote more in their major’s classes. Science majors tend to be good at written tests; this kind of test skill is useless after the preclinical years, i think. I think this may be one reason why med school adcoms may value non-academic EC experiences especially for science major premeds. These science premeds may need to horn their other skills (e.g., public speaking, leadership) as they do not have similar more interactive classroom experiences as humanity majors have. They are expected to remain silent so that their science professor can cover more materials in a class.</p>
<p>Yes. I felt light on biology despite the fact that the extra biology classes I did take were probably the best possible ones for medical school (physiology, microbiology, genetics/cell biology).</p>
<p>I’ve often commented that third-year medical students are graded first on their public speaking skills. I’d add that I think the other components are: (2) personality, (3) standardized tests regarding diagnosis and treatment, (4) writing skills. There’s probably others.</p>
<p>Schools website FAQs clearly laid out rationals, they accept sophomores into one of three tracks which they believe future development/advancement in medical profession will take place, computer engineering, biomedical, public health policy. This is well thought out, will likely fill half of their seats. Implicit message is that kids with above skill/ambition would not need to go thru traditional pre-med path, the school has a better way to filter out talented kids than using their orgo grades (or equivalent weeder class), they shall not waste time in MCAT (not permitted!!!), in stead, define their own education plan to pursue one of three tracks.</p>
<p>Bluedevilmike, please do not underestimate the importance of the basic sciences. Yes, the clinical sciences are important and are usually the reason why patients come to the hospital. But it is the strong understanding and application of the basic sciences that separates the level of care physicians provide. Granted, I am in a specialty with significantly more emphasis on the basic sciences. So your specialty may determine the level of basic science knowledge you need to retain. But I can tell you that just this year, I had to refer to my knowledge of fluid mechanics and electricity to address clinical patient concerns. Students should strive to develop into a physicians who can think beyond what they were taught. You have to question the establishment as a scientist and get away from protocol based decisions. Many of our treatments are not supported by outcome data and the profession need providers who can bring a different scientific perspective to find better solutions. Physician extenders and advanced practice nurses may have as much clinical training as physicians. But if you work closely with them, you will quickly find that there is a gap that can not be overcome by clinical experience. I believe that this gap is due to differences in the basic science education. Again, this differs depending on the specialty.</p>
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Maybe they think if all of their students are the top students in orgo (or equivalent weeder class) and excellent MCAT test takers, their students are too homogeneous in their strength. After all, weeding classes and standardized tests have their limitation in hunting down the “best” students, depending on how you define the “best”.</p>
<p>Adding some “Montessori” elements into medical school education may not be bad, as it could help getting some students who excel in some special area (usually they shine in some ECs) but have less patience or even ability in written tests. (Who could confidently claims that the written test skills are the most important skills after the students leave the school?! Maybe some life skills the students pick up by being active in the fraternity or some other clubs could be more useful in the long run.)</p>
<p>One rumor I heard for these early-entry/non-traditional programs is that they tend to recruit students from some prestigious colleges. This is likely because these colleges tend to have “cornered” many of the students who excel in their ECs in high school. Those in the lower social/economic class tend to lose out in this kind of “before-college EC game.” To put it bluntly, those who have a harder time in having resources to excel in ECs at the high school/middle school levels still need to rely on the traditional measures like GPA or MCAT, in order to prove themselves. (if the med schools still value it.)</p>
<p>"Yes. I took four total semesters of biology plus one of biochemistry; a biology major would have taken much more. "</p>
<p>That seems to be an extra year of biology compared AAMC guidelines of 1 year with lab. What about those who major in chemistry? Are they misisng out on Biology too?</p>
<p>This thread has taken a surprising turn from what is required by AAMC does not make good doctors and so Mt. Sinai may be right to people need lot more Biology than recommended!</p>
<p>It’s also notable that Mt. Sinai has been experimenting with a program like this for a while, that nobody else(at least for now) is following that lead, that nobody’s saying “bye-bye” to the MCAT or “hello” to language study in its stead. The headline of this thread-really inaccurate by any measure-was intended to get us all “riled up”’. Bottom line-as others have pointed out-the entire medical school experience is driven by standardized tests. The world of the medical student is driven by pass rates, etc with the goal of obtaining a desired residency, passing the boards, etc. So at least from that standard, it’s going to be possible to gauge the success(or failure) of this program. Will students in this program do better? Worse? The same? We’ll know in a few short years.</p>
<p>They should just let people go straight from high school to medical education and cut out the 4 years wasted at college that include student loan debt so people can finish in 5-6 years instead of 8. Waste of time and money. Most other countries do this.</p>
<p>I’m sorry, but if you’re doing anything biomedically related, knowing basic organic chemistry IS MUCH MORE IMPORTANT than knowing Spanish or Mandarin. Doctors better know something basic about the medicines they’re prescribing or the chemistry that governs life.</p>
<p>Being able to speak the same language as a patient is helpful, too. You often see medical students opting for extracurriculars or even online enrichment to learn Spanish or Mandarin. You never, ever seen them reviewing organic chemistry synthesis.</p>
<p>Folks, don’t think I over-read the significance of this FlexMed thing. It’s not a simple extension of the other program. This is actively encouraging computer engineer undergrad to go into medical field, by structuring their own education and bypassing pre-med requirement, while in undergrad.</p>
<p>My dentist had talked to me about this program when I told him I wanted to go to school in New York. He explained that once you are accepted to the program during your sophomore year you must spend a summer at the campus to learn all of the sciences that they feel are necessary for medical school and being a doctor, i.e. a bunch of biology and orgo. They aren’t necessarily phasing out the necessity of sciences for medical school, but trying to encourage the expansion of possible majors for medical school students while not forcing them to take classes to both fulfill their major and pre-med requirements at the same time.</p>
<p>At least that is how it was explained to me.</p>
<p>Spending a summer studying science AFTER acceptance, in a school which ALREADY accepted you, sounds a good deal (no more grades competition?). I bet this will draw lot of strong engineering type, crowd out traditional pre-med for their med school seats.</p>
<p>I’m not a science major but I still feel my organic chemistry class was important. Even if it is a difficult class that could weed people out, I’ve learned the skills I need to understand how drugs are synthesized and how they can react. I’ve also learn the reactions involved with a lot of carcinogens. Not to mention the nomenclature and structure could relate in a lot of ways to recognizing drugs, and synthesis helps with critical thinking like thinking backwards. </p>
<p>I feel all of this is more important than knowing Mandarin. If given the option I’d prefer o-chem but I’m two months from finishing o-chem so I might be biased.</p>
<p>maverick,</p>
<p>you also haven’t been in medical school yet. If it were an option, I would trade my orgo knowledge for a spoken foreign language (damn you all those years of latin and ancient greek!) in a heartbeat.</p>
<p>We are not tested on drug synthesis, the names of drugs are not always derived in any way from the chemical structure. The generic names are specifically chosen to be hard to say/use/remember because the brand names are specifically chosen to be easy to say/use/remember. We are not tested on the reactions of carcinogens, just the names of a few and the cancers they cause.</p>
<p>Just because you aren’t tested on it doesn’t mean it couldn’t be useful. Especially if you end up as a research doctor or pathologist. I was reading an article the other day on how there are a lot less medical doctors going into drug research. </p>
<p>But I digress, for a normal doctor I guess being able to speak a different language might be a bit more useful. Although a major hospital having one or two translators wouldn’t be so bad either.</p>
<p>“that nobody’s saying “bye-bye” to the MCAT or “hello” to language study in its stead.”</p>
<p>There are many combined programs out there not requiring MCAT today. Most of them seem to retain the prerequisite classes mandated by AAMC and a specific GPA at the time of graduation to move on to medical school.</p>
<p>I suspect that the reason why these prereq courses are there is that the med school wants to have some evidence that you can do the work in preclinical years and pass STEP-1.</p>
<p>regarding:
I think after DS had gotten into a med school and all those prereq classes were not his concern anymore, he once made a remark along the same line. He said he wished he had paid more attentions to the learning of the foreign language in college, like when he was studying it every year in high school and for 2 years in middle school. The “core education” in high school could be more useful than you would believe at that time. (5 classes, including a foreign language, were considered as core education classes at DS’s high school and their grades were used in the ranking of the students.)</p>
<p>Texas: I’m clearly not as well versed in this as others, but I have to ask:
You state “There are many combined programs out there not requiring MCAT today”; how many is “many”; having gone through the admissions process last year, my ancetdotal view would be that there are very few programs that don’t require the MCAT at some point-either for admissions, or after second year in some combined programs.
So how many is “many”?</p>