<p>While browsing the forums lately, I was astounded by Bylerly's extensive knowledge -- a knowledge which seems to encompass absolutely all published facts on college admissions and numerous unpublished ones. So, Byerly, you seem to be the person to ask (though I would appreciate answers from anyone else as well): how many 4,000 SAT/Valedictorians apply to Harvard annually and how many are accepted? Thanks for any assistance you (or anyone else) can provide.</p>
<p>Too many to accept them all and still have the incoming class they want.</p>
<p>still, ill bet Byerly will know the numbers</p>
<p>All I know are the SAT I 800 scorers in Math and Verbal over the years for the applicant group, the number of valedictorians, also, and occasional reports that a majority of 1,600 scorers in the nation apply to Harvard. Also, there are reports of the numbers of 800 scorers on the writing SAT IIs. I have never seen a 4,000 number, either for Harvard or for the nation as a whole. That's a good question: I'll ask around.</p>
<p>Note: this is the last year for the current scoring system, as we go to the new, watered-down SAT test, with analogies removed and a subjectively scored writing section included.</p>
<p>Byerly, if you could try to find how many people in the Harvard applicant pool had truly "high testing" (a.k.a. above 3900 sum), and were concurrently performing extremely well in class (either ranked 1st or 2nd, or with a 3.95+ unweighted GPA in the toughest classes available). </p>
<p>This would be extremely helpful, because it would give us an idea of the overlap between the people who get top scores on multiple SAT tests, and who are also ranked very high in their classes. For example, I know many people who managed to get an 800 on the SAT I Math, yet floundered on the SAT Verbal (with under a 600), and who probably would not end up getting into Harvard. Now ... I'm not making this judgment exclusively based on their test scores - I'm aware of other factors. </p>
<p>But I'm wondering how many sort of "lopsided" testers (with amazing testing in one subject but very weak testing in another) there are, or valedictorians with not-so-great testing that end up applying to Harvard. I'm also wondering how many very strong testers, but maybe not 800's in every subject (3800+, 3900+ testers) that also have the strong grades to be considered competitive. </p>
<p>I'd just really like to get an idea of the overall picture of the applicant pool - not just how many testers can get either a 800 M, 800 V, 800 W, or be valedictorian. Because honestly, a 790/780 is in a far better position to get into Harvard than an 800/560. And a 3900, unranked student with a 4.0 in the toughest classes available is in a far better position to get into Harvard than is a 3200 valedictorian.</p>
<p>So while I feel that being that told how many one-subject 800's and valedictorians is quite useful for intimidation, it doesn't give us the feel for the number of people that have both great grades and great scores in a number of areas.</p>
<p>Joey</p>
<p>Thank you in advance for your help in this matter.</p>
<p>Joey</p>
<p>"Too many to accept them all and still have the incoming class they want."</p>
<p>Wow, how many do you think there are? I'd think there are less than 50 or so (completely unfounded guess), which (if all were admitted) would comprise only ~2% of admitted students</p>
<p>Not everyone with great scores is admitted. There are lots of other things the admissions people look at. A 4000 person still can't call Harvard a sure admit.</p>
<p>I have seen a report of a 40% admit rate for 1,600 scorers. This was a recent year, but I can't recall which.</p>
<p>Usually there have been roughly 2,000 Verbal SAT 800 scorers, 3,000 SAT 800 Math scorers, and 3,000 Valedictorians in the applicant group.</p>
<p>Obviously there may be a high correlation between 800 scorers and valedictorians, but I don't know exactly what it is.</p>
<p>You can find out the answers to some of your questions by using Google. Typically, each April, the Harvard Gazette publishes info about the overall applicant pool, including things like how many 1600 scorers and valedictorians applied. I think that sometimes the article also gives some indication of what percentage were accepted.</p>
<p>The bottom line is that it takes far more than high stats, valedictorian status to get into Harvard. The only way that Harvard could create the kind of well rounded classes that it creates is by passing on many such candidates in favor or applicants with rarer attributes.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>The Gazette stories have never reported the number of 1,600 scorers in the applicant group..</p></li>
<li><p>The Gazette stories have never reported the number of 1,600 scorers (or 800 scorers, or valedictorians, for that matter) who are ADMITTED.</p></li>
<li><p>There are some dated numbers on admit rates by SAT score bracket for Harvard and other elites in "The Early Admissions Game" and in other published studies by the same authors.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Let me just clarify ... I know that scores and grades aren't everything. I just want to see how much of a correlation there really IS. Is Harvard taking one out of every two people with outstanding grades and outstanding scores? Is is taking one out of four? Is it taking one out of eight? Is it taking one out of ten? </p>
<p>If you have top scores and top grades, how good of a position are you in to show your other talents, and get admitted via those? Do you need a gigantic hook even with top grades and top scores to get admitted, or will those be extremely helpful, especially if your hook isn't quite as strong as URM/Legacy/Athlete?</p>
<p>These are the questions I'm seeking to answer. Where do great grades and great scores REALLY put you, in the context of the applicant pool? I'm not searching for any guarantees or predictions, because with Harvard there never are any guarantees or predictions. With a few exceptions, Harvard can accept and reject anyone it wants. </p>
<p>I say with a few exceptions, because Harvard is compelled, to a certain extent, to take the 4000/valedictorian who participated in the International Math Olympiad (unless said invented person is completely illiterate). And if Harvard doesn't want that particular student for its math department ... well, Yale and Princeton certainly will.</p>
<p>Joey</p>
<p>Check "The Early Admissions Game" and the various charts and graphs.</p>
<p>At Harvard, and at most schools (with the exception of those suffering from some degree of 'Tufts Syndrome) there is an almost geometric rise in the admit rate correlating to SAT score. Brown, I think, posts the numbers. Princeton may as well - in broader ranges.</p>
<p>To know the precise numbers at a particular school for a particular year won't tell you much - or enable you to "predict" your chances of admission with any degree of certainty..</p>
<p>Byerly - I noticed the numbers on Brown's site. They were quite helpeful and specific. There is nearly a geometric curve in terms of SAT scores vs. percentage of admissions. However, I would think that this is because students with higher SAT scores are more likely to display love of learning and passion for academic subjects than students with lower SAT scores. It's impossible to predict anything overly specific. However, it's nice to get a realistic idea of where you stand in the applicant pool.</p>
<p>I do have a question, though. Do Harvard, Yale, and Princeton tend to make distinctions between the 1480's, the 1520's, and the 1560's? How much of a difference do you think the last few points between 1500, 1550, and 1600 make? I realize that there are so many things beyond those numbers that will make a difference. However, if someone already passed a 1500, is it worth it to try to get that SAT up 40-50 points more? Will it make enough of a difference for it to be at all a consideration?</p>
<p>By the way, what part of the Early Admissions Game did you find the most helpful?</p>
<p>Thank you so much for your help. Even if no one can predict your chances, it's great to get information on the process from a knowledgable source.</p>
<p>Joey</p>
<p>If it helps, a Yale admissions officer said that they reject about 50% of their 1600 applicants.</p>
<p>ARGH i hate having a 1600 just because i know adcoms LOVE rejecting 1600s so they can say how many of them they rejected</p>
<p>hahaha I think that's true</p>
<p>still a 50% acceptance rate for 1600s is substantially better than the 10% rate for the applicant pool as a whole.</p>
<p>"I'm sweetdreams87. I hate having a 1600 on my SATs, and I hate that my diamond encrusted toilet is leaking all over my solid gold floor. I just hope it doesn't tarnish the platinum bathtub."</p>
<p>And just in case the tone doesn't come through, I meant that all in a good natured, joking fashion."</p>
<p>haha; i totally understand llamapyjamas. i was thrilled and ecstatic and disbelieving and grateful when i got my score, believe me, but in so many ways it seems to be better to have a 1590 :)</p>