My son is a junior and, sadly, has to already start making tough college planning decisions. I wish the process was more scientific with predictable outcomes! Here is what I am struggling with and would be so grateful for input and shared thoughts.
I predict Cal Poly will be his #1 choice so he should go “all in” which means:
a) A 5th year of English even though he is max rigor MCA points. Admissions recommends it and won’t endorse the old MCA rigor assumptions. Any advice on where to get a transferable online English course? It has to be online because his course load is full and he is attending the UCLA Applications of Nanoscience this summer.
b) He might be a little shy of the 21+ Work or internship hours. How exactly does that application word this section? If he applies 10/1 does he need 21 x 52 weeks (1092 total hours) for the preceding 52 week period?
c) If I’m doing the MCA calculations correctly, every full letter grade only makes a difference of 15 points. Presently, there is an odd Honors PreCalculus course thing going on and he received his first C last semester. He is set for a C this semester without dramatic intervention (private tutoring, time dedication). Not sure he wants to do that to maybe get a B or just eat the 15 points and make sure the rest of his courses stay at As. He is already max 8 semesters weighted and should be at a 4.05 even with that darn C. Am I correct in the MCA point approximate difference for every letter grade?
FYI: His SAT is a 1580 putting his MCA at about 4900 +|- 15 for a grade variation so his chances are good.
d). Is Computer Science or Computer Engineering less competitive? Any other majors that are reasonably similar and less competitive to look into?
Other schools
We will look at Mines and Purdue but I think he wants to stay in CA. I suppose he will throw his name in the USC hat if I can get like 12 essays out of him! So, mainly his other schools will be UCs and the only issue with those that I’m struggling with is the recommended SAT science subject matter test. He only took basic biology and chemistry. He is currently in Honors Physics with an A+ and plans to take AP Physics next year. I hear the physics test is a nightmare. Could it actually hurt him? Any suggestions? It’s UCSD, UCLA and UCD (too I think) that “recommend” (code for require) this. I don’t want to spend too much time on this when he wants to go to SLO but would it would be foolish to not plan for contingencies. Who knows? He might fall in love with UCLA this summer. My gut tells me to spend his time getting the work/internship hours for Cal Poly.
Thanks in advance for help with these technical questions. The process really requires knowledge and advance planning -
To obtain the 5th year of english, he could 1) take the AP eng Lang or lit and score at least a 3, 2) take an online freshman English 101 at a local CC. The consensus of engineering admits from hardest to easiest is:CS>ME/AE/BME/SE>CE/CPE/EE/IE/MatE/EnvE>GENE/MfE.
You should call admissions and ask how you should calculate your sons work hours. For my D who worked 40 hrs/week x 11weeks, she put down <10 hrs/week.
My advice is to have him apply for the CPE major. His stats look ok but the grades in honors precalc is concerning. A C grade in honors precalc at my D’s HS would not allow her to take AP calc. Math is very important for any engineering school admission especially at those other schools you mentioned. Those C grades in junior year math will surely raise some red flags. Engineering students at CP take 4 quarters of calc and 1-2 quarters of linear analysis/algebra. Also engineering physics is calculus based. To be successful in engineering school he needs have the chops for all the upper level math classes that he’ll be taking. Apply to CP but be sure to include other CSUs as safeties.
A C in pre-calc would have me more concerned about not just getting into an engineering program, but getting out. For most engineering majors success is directly correlated to a students command of math.
In the Cal Poly MCA score a c in math doesn’t hurt you anymore than a c in art. However like said above I would be concerned about an engineering major getting a c in pre-calc. I think the fifth year English is a waste of time if you’ve maxed out rigor.
They’re pretty late getting the 2018 numbers out, but looking at 2017, ignoring yield and just looking at the ratio of open slots to expected applicants, you get the following ordering
CSC .030
BME .045
AERO .049
ME .058
ENV .067
CPE .084
SE .112
CVE .115
EE .137
GE .172
MAT .198
IND .209
MFG .328
If your son’s goal is a CS degree, he should consider software engineering, which is an almost identical major, but traditionally a much easier admit than CSC or CPE.
@Luna2499 If your son is still intent on engineering, by all means have your son apply to CP. But talk to his GC and be sure he’ll be taking calculus next year. During the summer, he needs to find out what was his difficulty in precalc. Not understanding the trig functions or not devoting enough time to it because of AP classes. Get him a tutor and have him start going through the whole book, reworking all the problems. Be sure he has a solid foundation of precalc down before attempting any calculus class.
Thank you so much for the detailed information and candor. Great food for thought. If I remember correctly from the CalPoly tour, CS is all programming/heavy duty algorithims, Electrical Eng is all physical/circuits and computer engineering is a good hybrid - our student tour guide was a comp eng and said that with electives, you can skew it 90/10 in favor of CS or the other way in favor of electrical engineering. No? Maybe we need to look at the catalogue and course descriptions/prereqs again.
We fully understand that the bait and switch game won’t work at Cal Poly and have no intention of trying to play it. Just still figuring out the best actual major and, if two are tied, why not apply for the easier admit?
As for Honors Precalculus, I am loathe to blame the poor grade on the teacher but … He is the football coach (not to say all football coaches are less dedicated to the academic portion of teaching). I have met him, attended back to school night and attempted email communications for insight as to the issue with no success. I can say that he is a difficult person and not approachable. No help is available. The math lab is too basic. The format is to assign homework then ask the next day which problems he needs to go over. Limited instruction.
I am open to the idea that the issue is one of aptitude with my child but I don’t think it is. I acknowledge that precalculus is different than Algebra II and just because he whizzed through math all his life (and scored a 790 on the SAT math), doesn’t mean calculus will click. In my own experience, I was horribly lost in high school calculus then took it upon graduation at the very good community college and got an easy A. I am starting to intervene now to figure things out - last night he started a new analytical geometry section and I quizzed him on all of the of formulas he learned that day. He knew them all and could discuss the concepts. He could do all of the HW problems without help but he made sloppy errors in about 3 of 10 of the problems because he did the easy math (slope calculations) in his head. I will encourage him to write it all out but he argues there is not enough time on the test for that. The issue could be something as simple at that. So, we have some more learning to do before we declare him unfit for a calculus intensive major. Agreed. That “C” will be a glaring red flag to admissions at many schools. And yes, the goal is to get this kid into the best fit. If it turns out he lacks aptitude, he will adjust.
Regardless of the major, doing remedial precalculus over the summer is a great idea. Thanks again!
@rxcat85 I’m curious about the 5th year of English and how to fit it in. You mention taking the AP Lang or Lit and scoring at least a 3, how does this translate into a 5th year for SLO? Are AP scores submitted with the application? Why would a score of 3 equal a 5th year?
I’ve been looking through CC over the last 9-10 years since my son entered CP back in 2009 and now have a D there as a freshman. Both are in engineering as is DH. I remembered parents asking the same question many years ago. One Dad commented that his his kid past the AP Eng Lang test, put it under the college courses taken on the application and CP took it as a 5th year of english. In reality, there’s not a whole lot of ways to get that 5th year done. For my D a senior year elective of honors humanities was listed under the UC a-g course list as an English class when doing the application, while she though it was an art class all along. LOL.
A score of 3 in AP English Lang is passing grade and will get you credit for freshman english. But to make sure, call the admissions office and ask if that’s the case and how to put it on the application to indicate that 5th year of english. Of course things may have changed over the years. If your child cannot get the max rigor points in english, just remember the bulk of the rigor bonus points are math (500) and science lab (200). The max rigor bonus is 750 points. So I’m sure your child can get the extra 50 points by VAPA/language/social science class.
There’s no magic bullet to get into CP, look at the thread that @eyemgh started on the final results over the past few years. You can see so many high stat applicants get rejected. It just depends on the major and how strong are the other applicants and maybe a luck thrown in. But remember to reseach other schools and make note of the common data 25-75% in gpa and test scores. If you’re an enginnering applicant, you better make sure you are in the top 75% or better to stand a chance. Plus other engineering schools will go through with a fine tuned comb over each and every math/science grade and math/science SAT 2 score. CP uses MCa and the other CSUs uses EI.
Whoops. forgot to add - always make a list of reach/match/safety schools. Just be sure those safeties are schools you’ll be happy to attend if things don’t work out. Good luck, sorry for the long post.
AP Lang or AP Lit Exams with a score of 3 or higher count for a year of English only when the corresponding AP class is not taken. My sons in high school did not want to take AP English classes, but they did take the AP English Lang exams for the express purpose of getting credit for an additional year of English for the Cal Poly application. Cal Poly awards credit by examination as long as the score is 3 or higher.
" If you have taken both an AP exam and an AP course in the same subject, please report only the AP course and course grades on this application."
" If you have not completed all of the required number of subject matter course units in one of the following subject requirement areas: history/social science; English; science; visual arts or college prep electives, but you have taken a subject area related AP test and have received a score of three (3) or better, you may enter the test for course credit in the appropriate area. Select the institution you attended when the test was taken. Select the grade level and year the test was taken. Select the course title, “Other” and enter “AP Exam” and the exam name in the course title field. Example: “AP Exam Biology”. Select the Semester term type. You may enter a maximum of two (2) semesters of credit and select ‘Pass’ for each grade. "
Similar substitutions can also be used for math and foreign language credit.
Practically, this method of obtaining credit for subject matter needs to be done during the junior year of high school or earlier. AP exams taken the senior year are too late to be used on the application for one applying to be a freshman the year after completing high school.
“If you have not completed all of the required number of subject matter course units in one of the following subject requirement areas: history/social science; English; science; visual arts or college prep electives, but you have taken a subject area related AP test and have received a score of three (3) or better, you may enter the test for course credit in the appropriate area”
So if you only had 3 years of English but also took AP Lang test you could meet the 4 year requirement.
I do not think you could take 4 years of regular/non AP English and then take the AP test to get 5 years. Because you don’t fit the above of not completing required years
@VickiSoCal Three of my children used AP Exam scores of 3 or higher on their applications to Cal Poly for a 5th year of English. (They had taken 4 years of non-AP English classes.) One of them also took (and listed on his application) the AP US Gov Exam and the AP Economics exams without taking either AP Gov or AP Econ classes. Cal Poly honors credit by examination with AP tests as well as certain scores on SAT(2?) tests. We cannot know for sure whether Cal Poly actually gave them the bonus MCA points for the 5th year of English earned by the AP exam score, but they were all accepted. They also were all given credit for Cal Poly’s freshman English (ENGL 134) upon acceptance.
So you are saying Cal Poly gives a bonus fifth year to Kid A and not to Kid B just because Kid A didn’t have the word AP in their 11th grade class title and Kid B did? I ackowledge both wpuld get AP credit but the first kid getting more rigor points seems ridiculous
Kid A
9th grade English
10th grade English
11th grade English
12th grade English
Also takes AP Lang test scores 3 in 11th grade
Kid B
9th grade English
10th grade English
AP Lang with score of 5
AP Lit with score of 5
Actually I think it is logical and I very much doubt they are giving the fifth year. It says AP tests can be used to meet requirements there is no mention of bonus points. I suspect his would apply to a kid without a year of Art taking the AP Theory exam or AP Art History exam, not getting any rigor points. No way to know for sure of course. But I have no plans of having my current sophomore opt out of AP lang then take the AP lang test anyway! Her high school would frown on that very, very much.
Interesting that you think her high school would frown on a student taking an AP exam that did not take the class. Why? If a student has achieved subject mastery sufficient to pass an AP exam, I would think it should not matter HOW the student achieved that level of mastery. And it seems logical to me that Cal Poly WOULD reward that demonstration of proficiency. Anyone can spend a year sitting in another class. But not everyone can pass an AP exam. I assume very few attempt AP exams when they have not taken the corresponding class, but it is a very quick and efficient way to demonstrate college-level skill and frees up the student to spend his time in a class/activity that is more enjoyable to him.
Policy at our high school is that you can only take AP exams if you take the class.
Also there is no honors English in 11th and 12th grade only AP lit/Lang
California require 4 years of English for high school graduation. It feels wrong to me for an honors kid to deliberately take easy English classes in 11/12th grades in which they would not be with other college-bound students in order to possibly get 50 points at one college.
It seems wrong to me to require a student who has already achieved college level proficiency in a subject to sit through another high school class in that subject (and do lots of busy work).
And Cal Poly is so competitive that 50 points can easily make the difference between getting in or not. If it is your target school, it can be worth it.
