<p>Hello everyone. I'm going to be a HS senior this fall and W&M is currently one of my top choices. I've been looking around this forum and have noticed that W&M seems to put a lot of emphasis on taking Calc, Bio, Chem, and Physics as part of the high school curriculum. Currently, I have taken HN Bio, HN Chem, and AP Bio and am not taking any science course next year. In addition, I have taken HN Geometry, HN Alg II, and HN Precalc and am taking AP Stats next year. As I'm sure you can tell, this means that I will not be taking Calc or Physics.</p>
<p>Now, here's my problem. I recognize that taking Calc and Physics is a clear sign of a challenging courseload. However, I have opted out of taking these classes (which are in fact offered at my school) in order to take classes more relevant to my interests. I'm still challenging myself by taking 4 AP classes next year, but what I've read has left me a little uneasy. Obviously, Calc & Physics are not "requirements" for W&M, but I feel like my competitiveness as an applicant is diminished significantly by not taking these classes.</p>
<p>I don't doubt the reasoning for wanting applicants to take these classes, and I realize that not having Calc and Physics isn't the end all, be all of my application. Seeing such value placed on this factor though has left me feeling discouraged. If anyone could let me know whether this really is as important as it seems (especially if a student's schedule is still very challenging, just not necessarily in math/science), or how a situation like this is generally viewed, I would appreciate it. Thanks!</p>
<p>obviously, it is up to you. I don’t know if W&M Admissions has stats on the average number of AP classes accepted students take, but my impression is that 4 is not that many, unless that is all your school offers.</p>
<p>Students do get accepted that haven’t taken Calc and Physics, but I’m sure they are in the minority.</p>
<p>What state are you from? I don’t think a science track of bio/chem/bio/nothing will even get you the “advanced” diploma in VA, which is the diploma that anyone trying to go to a semi-competitive school will get. Just something to think about.</p>
<p>Thank you for the quick reply!</p>
<p>I’m taking 4 AP’s in my senior year… I took 4 this past year as well so it’ll be 8 altogether. AP’s aren’t offered to freshmen & sophomores at my school so as of right now, my schedule is one of the most rigorous schedules possible.</p>
<p>I’m not from VA, so in my state we just have one general diploma. At my school the graduation requirement is just 3 years of science, so the normal scheduling from year to year is usually classical science/bio/chem. As a freshman I skipped classical science and started with HN Bio, and then took HN Chem as a soph and AP Bio as a junior. The rest of the people in the same “track” as me took AP Bio, AP Chem, HN Physics, or Anatomy this past year. Most of them pick one of the remaining adv. sciences for their senior year, but not always.</p>
<p>While waiting for W&M 's response, I’ll just add food for thought…I think it just comes down to how “competitive” are you able to make your application? If W&M is your top choice, then it would make sense to choose the courses that make you most competitive while still doing well in those classes. Of course, you stated that W&M is one of your choices, so perhaps the other schools do not look for those same benchmark courses, and if you are really looking to avoid Physics and Calculus, perhaps it isn’t worth it to you to take those on. I would advise looking very carefully at each school you are applying to be sure that you are taking the required (and yes, recommended) courses so that you remain competitive.
As others said…there is not absolute here. But certainly, taking what W&M clearly prefers as a high school schedule greatly increases their interest in you.
Good luck in your admission process!</p>
<p>You’re right. Calc and physics are not requirements but like the fourth level of a single foreign language they are strongly recommended. We highly encourage students to enroll in the core subjects every year so even if you don’t take physics, you should take a science next year. Since you’ve taken pre-cacl we’d also recommend calc over AP Stats assuming you feel you can be successful in calc.</p>
<p>Since we do not admit students by major and because W&M is a liberal arts university and students will take classes across the curriculum regardless of major we want to see humanities-oriented students challenging themselves and doing well in math/sci courses and we like to see math/sci-oriented students challenging themselves and doing well in humanities courses.</p>
<p>Would a good compromise be to take AP Calc instead of AP stats and take a science class (even if it’s not physics) next year? Again, not having these courses doesn’t mean you’re automatically denied but you will be competing against 13,000 other applicants, the majority of whom will have at least one if not both of those courses on their transcript.</p>
<p>Thank you both for the replies!</p>
<p>I’ve looked up the recommended courses for most of the other schools I’m interested in and it’s really been a toss-up for which ones recommend 4 years of math and 4 years of science and which ones recommend 4 years of math and 3 years of science (or even 3 of each). I think what has me worried is that W&M provides more concrete course recommendations (such as calculus and four years of science/foreign language) and most of the other schools I’ve looked at have just given a general recommendation for the number of courses/years… so while I know it’s simply a recommendation, sometimes it feels as important as a requirement. This is probably just me worrying too much about one small factor, but I don’t want to apply with the feeling that my application is inadequate or incomplete.</p>
<p>I’m really not a math person at all, so while I’ve done well in all of my math courses thus far, I’ve come to the conclusion that AP Stats will be the better course for me as opposed to AP Calc.</p>
<p>Outside from this issue, I think I’m somewhat on par with the average W&M applicant. I’m definitely not an incredible applicant, but for the most part my grades, test scores, etc. are all pretty solid. Top 1.5% percent of my class (ranked 6/~520), 2190 (690M,700CR,800W) SAT, almost all HN/AP courses, 3.9UW/4.0+W, 4 years of a language, etc. I know I’ve challenged myself as much as possible every single year, but now I feel like that’s going unnoticed because I haven’t taken on the “same” challenge as most of the other applicants. I know all colleges (not just W&M) take everything an individual has done into account, but I just don’t want to feel like my own challenges have been useless.</p>
<p>Again, I really do appreciate the replies from all three of you… I’m going to think about all of this for a little while and then decide where to go from here. Summer vacation just started so I’ve got some time to think about whether I want to make any changes to my schedule for next year before I start applying. :)</p>
<p>Never think that your efforts don’t count. It’s simply that when applying to highly selective colleges, everyone has put forth incredible effort. Imagine the top 5-10% of your high school class? Pretty powerful group right? Well our pool is made up of those powerful people from high school classes across the country and the world. It’s the best and brightest high school seniors so you’re competing against other great students like yourself.</p>
<p>We recommend particular courses rather than a particular number of years because we expect students to enroll in the core classes every year that they are in high school and to challenge themselves even in those academic areas outside their comfort zone.</p>
<p>We do not require any classes in particular because we do not want to have to deny a student who could bring so much to the table in other areas and because we believe in holistic review but our recommendations are courses we strongly encourage students to take.</p>
<p>I understand. I’ll admit, the whole idea still worries me a lot, but I see why a lot of emphasis is placed on it. </p>
<p>Again, thanks a bunch for all of the help! I really appreciate you coming here to CC to help applicants with their questions. I know a lot of other college forums on here don’t have any admissions officers on hand to talk to so I’m really thankful that you’ve taken the time to come here and offer your insight.</p>
<p>I sympathize with you, and understand what a difficult decision you’re making. On the one hand you want to stick to classes you feel more comfortable with and keep your GPA as high as possible, but on the other hand you don’t want to disadvantage yourself by not taking the “recommended” courses. You just want to avoid a red flag, and I think not having any science would be one. Soccerguy makes a great point about the VA advanced diploma, and something I wouldn’t have thought about…almost no in-state applicant will have only 3 science courses. Just like he said, one of the requirements for an advanced diploma in VA is 4 science courses, and I would venture to guess that there are virtually no admitted students from VA without an advanced diploma. It’s called “advanced,” but it would be pretty unusual for a top student in VA just to get the “standard” diploma. I realize you’re an out-of-state student, but you’re competing for one of even a fewer number of spots, and you might look less competitive by comparison. As a compromise could you keep AP Stats and add physics? That way you’d have 4 math and 4 science courses, and at least one of the 2 “recommended” courses. With 8 AP courses, your other great stats, and with super essays and recommendations I think you’d be on track. You’re smart to think about this now and weigh your options instead of waiting until you’re filling out the application and have no choice.</p>
<p>Thank you for understanding! A red flag is exactly what I’m worried about… not to mention the fact that I’m OOS.</p>
<p>Right now, the compromise I’m looking at is in fact taking HN Physics in addition to AP Stats. I have one non-honors/AP elective scheduled for next year (aside from my language, which I’m taking a fourth year of but the AP level isn’t offered) which I would opt out of in order to take physics.</p>
<p>The more I think about it, the more I want to take a fourth year of science just to give myself a little more reassurance. Obviously taking a fourth year won’t ensure that I’m accepted anywhere, but like you mentioned, I just don’t want to have to regret it when it comes time to start applying. Thanks again for the help, I really do appreciate it! :)</p>
<p>I think Physics and AP stats is the right compromise, from what you have said in this thread. Sometimes you have to make choices that aren’t as good for yourself in the short term to get the payoff in the long term. best of luck!</p>
<p>Thank you so much! I really can’t tell you how much I appreciate all of you helping me out. If I decide to go through with Physics/AP Stats (which I most likely will), I know I’ll be much more confident in my decision than I would’ve been if I hadn’t gotten this much insight and advice. :)</p>
<p>Graduate, if you take HN physics would you then not complete the fourth level of a signle foreign language? Our specific recommended courses are calc, the fourth level of a single foreign language and bio/chem/physics. Dropping one to get the other is kind of a wash.</p>
<p>Would you be able to take another science course next year (say AP Environment/AP Bio/AP Chem or another non-AP science course and still keep the fourth level of your language. That might be the best scenario if it’s feasible.</p>
<p>To call not taking a fourth year of science a “red flag” is probably overstating the case. To us a red flag is a cause for a good amount of concern as to whether or not the student would be successful at W&M. Not taking a fourth year of science doesn’t rise to that level but it could make your transcript less competitive than others we are reviewing and in selective admission, you want to be as competitive as you can be.</p>
<p>That being said, as long as students manage their expectations and realize that W&M may be a reach school or at least realize that only 27% of OOS students are getting admitted and they go in knowing that admission is less likely than not there’s nothing wrong with that. You won’t know if you could have gotten in unless you apply and if you do and apply and don’t get in you’ll have plenty of other great options assuming your college search is thoughtful.</p>
<p>Nope, no worries! If I take HN Physics, I’ll still have my fourth year of a foreign language. I’ll be dropping an extra elective that I took just to balance out my schedule a little with the four AP’s. Besides phys ed, I have six classes a year, so I’ll have my four AP’s, HN Physics, and my language (AP isn’t offered for my language).</p>
<p>I guess in my eyes it seems a little like a red flag, but hey, I guess that’s life as a worried college applicant. 
I know how selective W&M is so I have no expectations… hoping for the best, preparing for the worst! Whatever happens happens (as with any college), but I do want to put in a lot of effort to make sure my applications are as competitive as possible.</p>
<p>Again, I can’t thank you enough! I’m really glad that you’ve taken the time to help me out and explain things in such detail. It’s definitely helped me look critically at all of my options and choose the best one for me.</p>
<p>HN Physics plus AP Stats + foreign language sounds like the best plan for you. We know applying to colleges is stressful but if you’re smart about your search you’ll absolutely be successful!</p>
<p>Hi,</p>
<p>I am new to this so I apologize if I am in the wrong thread. I am in a similar situation and greatly appreciate your advice. I would very much like to go to W&M and plan to apply early. I have done pretty well in a pretty competitive school district in VA (4.25 weighted GPA, 33 on the ACT, 1380 on the SAT, Merit Scholar commendation, A’s in all three APs last year (US History, English, Psych), four next year (Government, Literature, Environmental Science, Computer Science). I have taken pretty much all honors classes, including Pre-Calc, Geosystems and Chem. I will also be taking my fourth year of Japanese next year. I thought I was pretty well set, but when I read this thread and a couple of others I started to get concerned. Is AP Computer Science not a strong enough math course for my senior year (when that just interests me a whole lot more than Calc)? Is AP environmental science not strong enough (even though I want to major in that)? Are non-AP classes OK if they fit my interests (like taking Creative Writing and Film Studies when I am an artsy-type)? Here is my planned course load if that helps:</p>
<p>AP Environmental Science
AP Government
AP Lit
AP Computer Science
Japanese 4
Creative Writing
Film Studies</p>
<p>Outside of that, I am active on our literary/arts magazine, an arts club, involved in several honor societies. </p>
<p>I definitely want to make my application competitive, but I also thought you wanted to see who I am and what my interests really are. I can take another math or science course, but I’ve done pretty well in all of them so far. How much do I sacrifice my interests for the sake of my application?</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>Hi Squishydamoose, nice work on your academic credentials thus far! Your inclinations to rethink AP computer science and environmental science may be correct. If you plan to major in environmental science, you are likely better off taking a beefier AP science like physics or chem or biology, and same for math by taking AP Calc, then holding off on the environmental classes until college. You will find chem, calc and physics in high school to give you a better foundation for college subjects in the sciences at W&M. W&M also offers various statistics classes specifically designed for science majors (more relevant to your college course of study, rather than just generic statistics). AP Lit generally requires alot of creative writing along with significant reading, so it might be redundant to take an additional writing course, so maybe sacrifice creative writing for computer science if that interests you enough?? Although freshman level sciences do not require calc/physics/biology, these subjects are very challenging at W&M and you’ll have a better understanding with a year of rigorous high school foundation in these subjects, same w/calculus & calcII.</p>
<p>squishy, the trade off is a choice that only you can make. You should realize that a lot of your peers have equally impressive grades and standardized test scores, and will be talking calc and science classes during their senior year. Is it worth suffering through a couple classes that you don’t like as much to increase your chances? Depends on how much suffering they involve, and how much they increase your chances.</p>
<p>We’d definitely recommend you take AP Calc instead of AP Computer Science only because you took pre-calc last year so you’ve been tracked to be able to take calc and we consider that to be one of the most challenging courses a high school student can take. If you haven’t taken physics at all we might recommend that instead of one of your electives so that you can keep AP Env. but also take another really challenging science course. Another option would be to take AP Comp Sci and AP Calculus (in place of one of your electives) and keep AP Env in lieu of physics.</p>
<p>Remember, we do not admit students by major nor do we consider intended major when students apply. There are a few reasons for this. 1) W&M is a liberal arts university. Therefore, regardless of your major you will take classes across the W&M curriculum so we like to see that you are strong across the curriculum in HS and willing to challenge yourself outside of your academic comfort zone. 2) Your major could very easily change while at W&M. </p>
<p>Hope this is helpful!</p>
<p>Thanks to all of you for the great ideas. It really helps, and I am really glad I found this site!</p>