<p>BCEagle,
I wouldn't be surprised in the least if my humanities guy took Calc again from the beginning (if it's required) in college, even if he got AP credit. Saying that, I also know that he's checking math requirements in his intended major -- which so far are all stats classes.</p>
<p>Taking calculus for admissions purposes is not incompatible with taking the class again in college. It may be a different course in college with a different focus. A lot of people do find it quite a challenge (and of course there are those that find it really easy). Two of my sisters (nursing, accounting) squeaked by without really understanding what they took. One other sister took it in high school and went into chemical engineering.</p>
<p>I understand the dilemma -- to take a class in a subject she may never need and reduce her GPA, or take the class and show that she's willing to tackle subjects she's not "good" at.</p>
<p>If I recall correctly, tutoring and community college were suggested in your prior thread. So it seems that these intermediate choices have been rejected already. Let's hope the ramifications of that decision are benign.</p>
<p>I agree with AW, find the right math class at the JC.</p>
<p>2 of my kids are math/science, one is humanities, she was always very good at math, but switching schools several times resulted in a lack of confidence and some holes in the math continuum. She took some sort of non-calc track class her last year at a new HS (prior HS was integrated, finishing HS was each subject = 1 year, so she had had 2/3 of a year of each) She also took some pre-calc at the JC and that is all she needed.</p>
<p>Caveat, she was not going for a tippy top school but her LAC has no issue and her humanities major does not require any further math</p>
<p>BTW- many CA community colleges offer a stats class online that is already approved for transfer to a UC, so ought to transfer anywhere, this would allow your DD to take stats on her own timeline. But, be warned, online classes are surprisingly difficult, esp in time mgmt, you must do every assignment on time and no excuses when you cannot get online, have a back up planned, no last minute, midnight work!</p>
<p>D2 avoided taking Calc this year as a sr. (is taking Discrete (discreet?) math as her 4th yr course). She really is not fond of math....she luckily ended up with a B in pre-calc, but that was because she had a live-in math geek sister, and sister's geeky bf (who was much more successful in helping her--no sisterly drama). I have no doubts that she'll retake pre-cal in college. As she will most assuredly not be heading toward a math-oriented college major, I think she'll be fine, considering her strengths in other areas.</p>
<p>As a tutoring option, if your D stays in Calculus, she should seek out before- and after-school help from from of the math whizzes at school. Most are more than willing to help, and if it's with someone who had the same teacher last year (maybe they took the class as a jr.), that would also help tremendously. </p>
<p>RE: AP English.... D1 went the AP routes for jr. and sr. year, and heartily encouraged her sister, who is very strong in English, NOT to take the courses. It had to do with the workload of the teachers, etc. D2 self-studied (like, maybe 4 hours' worth) for AP language last year and got a "5", because of her strengths already. She's doing the same thing this year with Lit..... It made her schedule easier to accommodate the other classes she really wanted to take.</p>
<p>At some point, every decision can't be driven by how it will look on the college app. (I'm admittedly much more relaxed about the process the 2nd time around, as you can tell).</p>
<p>I don't know if a college student's experience counts for anything, but maybe it can help you out.</p>
<p>I was in a similar position my senior year, I was signed up for AP Calc AB and despite formal tutoring, help from my parents, and hours upon hours of studying, I was met with tears of frustration that I spent four hours on one homework assignment, and I could not score higher than 50% on the first two tests in the class.</p>
<p>I went to visit my GC and explained my situation. At first she told me to wait it out which I did, but the class did not get any easier and I was not doing any better. Unfortunately, by following her advice and waiting I missed the deadline to switch into AP Statistics (the other class that students from Pre-Calculus went into).</p>
<p>So we came up with a new solution: I dropped Calculus and became a teacher's aid for the rest of the first semester. To make up for lost credits I took a community college course in a topic I was really interested in (Theater). Second Semester I signed up for an elective class I would have been otherwise unable to take (a discussion class on current events. Probably one of the best classes I took in high school), and took Statistics at community college.</p>
<p>Apparently the community college classes gave me more credits than I would have had, had I stuck with AP Calc. And also the Statistics class was transferable to my major and I got out of having to take a smiliar class.</p>
<p>In the end, I think dropping that class was the best decision I could have made. I enjoyed my senior year SO much more because I wasn't stressed out about the horrible grade I was getting in that class, or frustrated that I simply wasn't understanding the material, and I still I got into a great college.</p>
<p>A common point I've seen is that GCs will, robot-like, recommend that your child take calc. Irresponsible.</p>
<p>Everyone can't dunk a basketball, and everyone can't get a B in Calc.</p>
<p>Check the Common Data Set on a preferred college's website. That document formally sets for the required and desired math/English/etc targets. Yes, schools might "prefer" Calc, but in the same way that they "prefer" uw 4.0.</p>
<p>This is an easy question for me, as DD is not on track to take Calc, and will probably stop at Alg II.</p>
<p><a href="is%20taking%20Discrete%20(discreet?)%20math%20as%20her%204th%20yr%20course">quote</a>
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It is discrete mathematics (finite mathematics). Discrete mathematics is the foundation of computer science. Discrete</a> mathematics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia</p>
<p>I do like the idea of discreet mathematics - numbers in the dark, behaving badly. :)</p>
<p>Lots of kids at our h.s take Discrete Math in lieu of Calc. for the fourth math. My S2 did not excel at math. He took a class called Functions and Modeling to fulfil his 4th yr. math requirement. Our system requires that four years of math be taken in high sch. no matter what was taken in middle sch.</p>
<p>Some kids who started on the faster track in our mid. sch. (Alg. 1 in 7th gr. and Geom. in 8th), found that they had "hit the wall" in math before they got their 4th course in high sch. in so opted to take a lower level course for senior yr.</p>
<p>I would not want my child to really struggle with a math class like Calculus. If tutoring would make a difference, I would see about that. I took Calculus back in the day in HS, and virtually no more math for 4 years of college. (I was always a strong math student, but 2 weeks in linear algebra taught me that I had maxed out on my ability.) I got an MBA, and once again Calculus turned up. Lucky for me, I remembered it, but not everyone had even taken it ever. I had never taken statistics, which also was required in the MBA math class, and I thought that it actually was interesting.</p>
<p>Thanks for the info, avoidingwork!! I like the idea of discreet math, too, I guess!!!! Based on the wiki link, I think the course at our h.s. only hinted at some of these topics. It wasn't nearly the fun for D1 that any of her Computer Science classes have been.....it was all at a pretty basic level.</p>
<p>There is PLENTY of Disc Math that ties to CS...they just didn't get to the good stuff!</p>
<p>Yeah, CD....I think they "dumbed it down"....it's too bad, the info in the wiki link sounds a lot more interesting than D's class was!!!</p>
<p>Discrete Math is a good tease for math as it may be easier to relate to for many students. Calculus is more interesting if applications are provided to a level of good understanding.</p>
<p>MIT Open Courseware has Discrete Math/Strucutures materials that can be downloaded.</p>
<p>OP back now--quite a lot of interesting comment in the interim! Thank you all. Today D talked with her counselor, who advised her to "give it two weeks". D will see a tutor for at least two hours of one-on-one coaching during that period. But I don't think this is a problem that tutoring can solve--again, been there, done that, with my son, and it didn't help. D was completely unable to do her homework tonight--and it's only the 5th day of classes! It's not the teacher--she's one of the best ones, and D likes her. </p>
<p>If D drops Calc., the counselor agrees with most posters that she should take Statistics, though the only course offered is AP Statistics, and it would require completely re-doing her schedule, maybe giving up a much-desired elective--a real mess. (I'm bursting with repressed "I told you so's", since I strongly advised her against Calc. back in the spring when she selected her classes and scheduling was not an issue.) Can anyone offer some wisdom on how difficult the AP Statistics course might be for her, especially jumping in three weeks into the school year?? (Out of the frying pan into the fire?) Unfortunately all the Statistics classes for the fall term at the local community college, including the online one, are full, so that's a dead end--clever idea, though. The academic level at the place is pretty low--she probably could have aced the class.</p>
<p>Just to clarify D's abilities, she did fine (not brilliantly, but fine) in Honors Algebra I (in middle school-it definitely won't be on her high school transcript), Honors Geometry and Honors Algebra II. Last year's non-Honors Pre-Calc. was pretty disastrous. Math SAT was 670 with intensive coaching/prep. I just think she's reached her natural limit in math. It would have been the same for both me and my husband, and was exactly the same for her brother--we have a genetic thing going on here, people! Calculus will not be a formal prerequisite for anything she ever studies again, and I guarantee that even if she struggles through it this year, she'll take nothing away from it. I managed to graduate from college Phi Beta Kappa and from an Ivy law school with honors without even having a clue what Calculus is (still don't know, don't want to know), so the whole thing just frustrates me. </p>
<p>I can't agree with the idea that she shouldn't even consider schools that prefer 4 years of math. That cuts out a huge number of colleges, and she could very well be appealing to them in ways that would supersede the preference. (She has a documented learning disability--NVLD--that could go a long way toward explaining away the missing math, but we weren't planning on making it a part of her applications--so that's a whole other issue to anguish over.)</p>
<p>I'll let you know how this all pans out. I'm soooo glad she's my last and I won't have to deal with this nuttiness ever again!</p>
<p>The SAT measures math below precalculus - 670 is a pretty decent score. If she struggled in precalc, then calculus will be even harder as the work and difficulty level accelerate. If our daughter struggled with precalc, then I'd have her take it over again instead of taking calc. In fact that's what we have done. We taught it to her for two or three years along with problem solving using AOPS and she's taking it again at CC right now. I never felt that she was comfortable with it enough to proceed. And it may be that the external motivation of college credits and testing will help.</p>
<p>I believe that AP statistics is algebra-based so it should be a lot easier than calculus. You might check with the CC to see if slots open during drop/add. Another approach would be to contact professors to see if they would take an extra student. Our daughter's CC is dealing with higher enrollments. Huge lines at the bookstore and at the tech help desk with requests for Blackboard help.</p>
<p>if you page down to math you will see that have two online stats classes, I have not checked whether the class is full or when it begins, but many CCs in WA and CA have online courses and have UW & UCs on a quarter schedule which will not begin for a few more weeks, if that is what you truly want to pursue don't give up yet</p>
<p>My D's senior year with AP Calculus was a disaster ("regular" Calculus wasn't even offered, all sections were deemed AP). It was not the teacher's fault - she's awesome and had tutored D with earlier math struggles due to shoddy teachers. Unfortunatley the math program at our top ranked high school has been a mess for a number of years, but that's another story. Because of scheduling issues, Statistics was not an option as the only section conflicted with a much beloved band class in which she played a key role (something she loved doing and additionally added a wonderful spin to her college app).</p>
<p>In the end, rather than give D a less than stellar grade the teacher gave her a "pass" for her final semester. No letter grade. By this time the college acceptance was well in the bag and the college didn't question it. Probably not ideal. Due to D's over the top athletic schedule, community college wasn't an option and we didn't think of on-line. A number of our local students "seek" their math credits outside of our high school at "private" locations. To my mind it's the parents buying a good grade - an awful practice that even I considered for a few days. Big $$$$. That's what a shambles the local math program has become. Grade point averages at this school are quite skewed because of this practice. Sorry for digressing.</p>
<p>Do you want to deal with math tears for the next nine months? Just research any and all alternatives to Calculus. If she's not going into a math based major, I personally would not push calculus. I think my D would have done very well in a Stats class - that kind of stuff appeals to her and she seems to process that kind of math much more easily.</p>
<p>Postponing the inevitable for two weeks is compounding the problem. I'd get on the phone with the admissions offices of a few of her target colleges and ask if math through pre-calc completed in junior year is sufficient for a humanities type applicant. Assuming you get a few green lights, I'd pull DD out of calc, fix the schedule as early in the year as possible, and lobby the HS guidance counselor to make sure you aren't risking the "most rigorous curriculum" checkbox.</p>
<p>Good luck.</p>
<p>My DD had a similar experience with AP physics, a teacher she liked convinced her to stay in, she was the only girl and it was a small class, but it was not her cup of tea. The class became the emotional fixation of everything that was wrong in life and was miserable the entire second term (year long class) I wish she had not tried to take the very hardest schedule in the school, she would have had the same results without that class, it just was not the big deal she thought it was.</p>
<p>She had a very negative feeling about physics thereafter and struggled through her first term in university; intriguingly, she took the last two classes at the end of her college time and connected with a great teacher and earned very strong As with 100% on one of the finals, so much of it was mental block and also the first uni prof did not speak English very well :( So, in the end she overcame her mental block, but the whole thing was simply unnecessary drama. </p>
<p>Knowing what I know now, I would have my DD drop that calc class and take a math class online JC if she really needs one- even if she takes it in the spring. Don't let her senior year be dominated and made miserable to try to impress some adcom some where, let her impress them by following HER passion, which is not math!</p>
<p>My younger DD took one less class in grade 12 than the sister with the physics issue, Younger DD got better university acceptances and with very similar profiles younger DD had more fun and did what she loved and that worked better!</p>