California Court blocks state high school exit exam

Parent Cafe
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<p>"The suit, Valenzuela v. California, claimed that students who have repeatedly failed the test -- especially English learners -- have not had a fair opportunity to learn the material because they are more likely to attend overcrowded schools and have teachers without proper credentials.</p>

<p>Judge Freeman said he was inclined to agree."</p>

<p>It seems to be that this case revolves quite simply around two factual issues: 1) are these students more likely to attend overcrowded schools and schools with uncredentialed teachers, 2) are there links between school quality (i.e. crowdedness of schools and teacher credentialing and the ability of the students to perform well on these tests?</p>

<p>Both are factual issues (the second one already adjudicated to some extent in Williams v. California), and if the answer to both can reasonably be said to be yes, I think virtually everyone would agree that the judge would be irresponsible NOT to issue the injunction.</p>

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<p>Mini is 100% correct. If both of his factual issues are answered in the affirmative, the only responsible thing to do is to continue issuing meaningless high school diplomas to students who can't demonstrate proficiency on 7th grade tests--despite having been passed up through the system by public union employees. I don't know why the rest of you can't see this. I think they should just go ahead and give them UC diplomas too, since they've been so down-trodden for so long, so they can hit the work force fully-credentialed. Maybe a few graduate degrees too. It would save a lot of state money, free up classroom space, just a win-win all around.</p>

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<p>The only responsible thing to do is to address the inequality. But that's the next step. Glad you agree with the first.</p>

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<p>"a bad question yields a bad result"</p>

<p>Truly bad questions should be "thrown out". Don't forget, those standardized tests are created by educators, not morons that don't know a thing about education.</p>

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<p>And we wonder why we are losing so many high tech jobs in this country?</p>

<p>If a MLB pitcher is not getting out the hitters, then he loses his spot in the rotation, and eventually (if he does not improve) he loses his place on the team. </p>

<p>If a TV station is losing viewership of a certain program (news, sitcom, etc.), then the station and/or network will typically cancel the show, or fire the anchor who is not cutting it. </p>

<p>If a Cashier at a store (or a bank) can not give out proper change, or balance their register, at the end of each shift, then he/she will eventually be let go (or moved to a non-monetary position).</p>

<p>If an apprentice carpenter can not hit nails without bending every other one, he/she will eventually be let go, and will find it difficult to get hired for a job.</p>

<p>If a bus driver routinely gets into traffice accidents, then the transit company will likely let him/her go after "x" number of incidents.</p>

<p>If a doctor makes surgical mistakes, often, then he/she will eventually be let go, and/or lose his/her license.</p>

<p>In most professions, mistakes and/or not meeting minimal standards is not tolerated. </p>

<p>The REAL WORLD is not as forgiving as our school systems. </p>

<p>You may be doing more harm (than good) to our youth, by letting them graduate without proper skills. Imagine yourself as a small-business owner. Are you going to hire someone as a cashier who is not proficient at basic math skills? </p>

<p>If your argument is that "not all students are acedemicallly inclined", then you need to change the system. Change to a standard like that in some other countries. At an early age, test results determine who goes on to academic schools, and who takes an alternate path to a vocational career.</p>

<p>If your argument is that non-english speaking students suffer hardships in our english speaking schools and job market, then stop promoting and supporting the speaking of non-english languages. It is not helping them. You may want it to be so, but you can't have it both ways. If you want people to be successful, and to become educated, then they need to learn the primary language of the country in which they live. If, on the other hand, maintaining their native language is of greater importance, then so be it. But don't be unreasonable by thinking that they will do as well as those who are able to successfully converse in the English language. And, there will always be those who are in the transition stage (learning the language). You can not change the system for the majority (due to a never-ending flow of new immagrants to our country). Unfortunately, maybe, there needs to be alternate schools for folks who are in the transition phase. As in the above work scenarios, if you can't perform, then you are turned away from that position. Why should schools be different. I am not trying to be cold or callous, I am being realistic. </p>

<p>Giving a degree to students who did not pass the required exams is not helping them.</p>

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<p>No. It is still irresponsible to issue a diiploma when standards aren't met. The answer is another year of school. If it could be demonstrated that a law school (or whatever) had crowded classes or other similar issues, and those students couldn't pass the bar exam because of those problems, would you advocate a judge ordering the California Bar to accept those people??? NO, you would not. </p>

<p>The answer is not "give them the diplomas". The answer is -- go to school until you've learned what is required.</p>

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<p>A standardized test is like a blood test. It doesn't correct the problem, it identifies the problem -- according to established baselines. We don't get rid of blood tests just because they don't improve people's blood.</p>

<p>ok- but then
I don't want the test to be written by the same people who sell teh textbooks. The test should be written well enough that anyone coming in with a 10th grade education from another state, can pass it- it should be clear what is needed.
Also, why wait till 10th gd to say " omg" students aren't passing this test! When you identify that students are having difficulty, say in reading and math in elementary school- make sure MEANINGFUL, resources are made available so that the student doesn't get farther behind.
It is easier to catch up when the student is in 5th grade and is two years behind in math, than when they are in 10th grade, and are 5 years behind- duh
As part of the Gates foundation money- our school was supposed to look at what classrooms were being more effective, in an effort to improve instruction and learning. Good teachers didn't have a problem with being observed and with tabulating data on progress, other teachers had a fit, and refused for their data to be seperated out, they wanted all students in teh same grade to be grouped together, whether or not they had the same teacher.</p>

<p>Because our school along with other schools in the district did not do this,along with other things, the Gates foundation pulled money that was sorely needed in the classrooms.</p>

<p>If I could improve at my job, I would welcome positive comments and evaluation. as it is , some parents know who the "good" teachers are, and will do whatever it takes to get their kids into those classrooms.</p>

<p>BUt other families, often families who are new to the school/district, often lower income who aren't able to be in the building, don't know all the little tricks you have to do, so disproportionality gap, gets even wider. Because the more sought after teachers, go to the kids whose parents have the resources- either through private schools, or by being able to work the system.</p>

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<p>But you forget that the tests were originally developed to measure school quality, not individual student performance. And the standards assumed a level of quality, which the judge was asked to adjudicate.</p>

<p>"would you advocate a judge ordering the California Bar to accept those people??? NO, you would not."</p>

<p>Actually, I wouldn't have to. The law school would or would not, as a factual matter, be accredited. If it was not accredited, i.e. met certain standards for quality, I not only wouldn't pass the bar exam, I wouldn't even be allowed to sit for it.</p>

<p>Look - we all know what this is about. Wal-Mart needs workers. The population of Wal-Mart and their families is now larger than the population individually of 34 separate states. The population of McDonald's and Burger King is not much smaller. The country does not need people who pass the exams, but people who FAIL them, so that they will blame themselves for failure, and be willing to take whatever crumbs the system throws their way. Don't have health insurance? Blame it on your 10th grade math performance. It's pretty sick if you ask me, but makes quite rational sense in terms of the nation's true needs.</p>

<p>But, again, to answer your question - the standards for schools are what the tests were initially drawn up to measure. If the schools fail them, the answer is to address the inequalities that produce them, not those interred inside.</p>

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<p>Jlauer, I am a LIBERAL and I am here to be your cavalry!!! </p>

<p>First, a sidebar agreement with an earlier point: I deplore the lack of good vocational classes for kids who are just plain not academically inclined; that option should exist to serve all kids. I also think there needs to be room for a severly LD kid to acquire a different set of skills and to be mainstreamed as much as possible. Perhaps even an oral exam ought to exist for a kid who is dyslexic but can learn, function, and deserves to move on-- So I agree that certain exceptions ought to exist.</p>

<p>HOWEVER mostly-- the tests are a good idea. </p>

<p>I live in California, my kids go to schools with about 50% Latino kids, many from non-english-speaking homes. I have also been a legal resident alien in another country where not one bit of slack was cut for the non-native speakers and nobody whined about it.</p>

<p>IT IS MADNESS to call the end of social promotion discriminatory against Latino/poor kids. MADNESS. That is, unless we want to reclassify HS as day-care for older kids who aren't yet quite old enough to go to work as dishwashers and maids. Social promotion is what is discriminatory, in my book-- viewing huge groups of kids as less important, less able, un-educable, and just letting them fall off the radar. </p>

<p>The idea that any kid who cannot pass this test could hope to attend college? Crazy. If you cannot do 8th grade Eng & Math you do not have a prayer in college unless you are just passing the remediation buck along to the college. </p>

<p>This exit test is incredibly basic. The reason it is so basic is it is looking for ELEMENTARY SKILLS that would allow a person to FUNCTION in our society, in English, in the working world, with their check book, etc. Clearly, for too long, schools have been passing kids who have never learned the most basic skills. This is CRUEL.</p>

<p>The reason many kids don't pass this exit exam is also has a lot to do with never having required english instruction in the early grades. In my district, the switch away from bi-lingual (read: separate not equal) education was only accomplished about 6 years ago. The kids who were in the Spanish track until 6th grade are behind, understandably, in 12th. It is sad for them to have to struggle and catch up now, but better now than never. I bet the passing rates will go shooting up over the next several years now that the chronically bad education of these kids is being busted and cleaned up.</p>

<p>I was talking to a teacher a few days ago -- here is what one school district is doing in jr. high: making kids who are really behind in eng or in math take a <em>2nd</em> english or math class each day instead of an elective. I HATE that kids would not have a chance for art, music, etc-- but what is the alternative? Not being functional in this country?</p>

<p>The teacher told me the kids in 2 math classes are, sure enough, IMPROVING. I think a short term PITA, stress, difficulty is well worth the long term result: better aspirations, income, integration, etc. And the future children will have moms and dads who are NOT illiterate!!</p>

<p>I cannot believe that anyone with an ounce of compassion towards immigrants and the poor would prefer a system that ALLOWS schools to get away with not teaching the poor and latino children and spitting them out into a future where nothing above menial level is open to them.</p>

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<p>"IT IS MADNESS to call the end of social promotion discriminatory against Latino/poor kids."</p>

<p>The injunction was isused NOT because the kids were Latino, and NOT because the kids were poor, and NOT because the parents were immigrants, but because the classes (funded by predominantly white taxpayers) are overcrowded and because the teachers (predominantly white) are uncredentialed, and because the system, controlled by white powerbrokers, keeps them overcrowded and the teachers uncredentialed. </p>

<p>"I cannot believe that anyone with an ounce of compassion towards immigrants and the poor would prefer a system that ALLOWS schools to get away with not teaching the poor and latino children and spitting them out into a future where nothing above menial level is open to them."</p>

<p>I couldn't agree more, and we gain nothing by blaming the victoms of such a system.</p>

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<p>We gain equally nothing by sending them on with smiley faces and diplomas that don't mean anything!</p>

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<p>I do not see extra work towards remediation and the expectation of the kids to get more skills as "punishing" them. The crime has been committed long ago, but lets not compound it now.</p>

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<p>"We gain equally nothing by sending them on with smiley faces and diplomas that don't mean anything!"</p>

<p>On the contrary, we gain heaps by ensuring their failure. See post #48. We NEED failures, LOTS of them, or the system is in trouble. We could flunk 'em all without a test, you know.</p>

<p>I'm for "equal opportunity" failures. ;)</p>

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<p>Mini, the point is by choking off the social promotion outflow valve, the system is backing up and the poor and non-english speaking kids are getting a great deal more attention. I live in a district where this is happening. We began before the state by abolishing bilingual public grammar schools (excellent step one to lots & lots of failures, BTW-- and might I add this move was FOUGHT HARD by most in the Liberal camp & the Latino community!!) Then the pressure mounted from putting an exit exam at the graduation end of the K-12 line. Right now we've got kids squeezed in the middle, no question, but the system has been improving because everyone has seen the exit exam looming!</p>

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<p>Next improvement: a harder exit exam!!</p>

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<p>So provide even equal opportunity (I don't think that's fair either, but would be a good start), or better, crowd up all the white schools and send the uncredentialed teachers there - after all, it doesn't make any difference (that's what the State Board of Education argued in the Williams lawsuit), do it for 12 years in a row, and see what happens. I'm sure you'll volunteer your kid for such "equality"?</p>

<p>Wal-Mart is going to get its workers from somewhere, so it doesn't make a hill-of-beans worth of difference. Test scores in California go up - how many aerospace engineers have they added lately?</p>

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<p>No. It is still irresponsible to issue a diiploma when standards aren't met. The answer is another year of school. If it could be demonstrated that a law school (or whatever) had crowded classes or other similar issues, and those students couldn't pass the bar exam because of those problems. In such a case, would you advocate a judge ordering the California Bar to accept those people??? NO, you would not. </p>

<p>The answer is not "give them the diplomas". The answer is -- go to school until you've learned what is required.</p>

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<p>California HAS standards for class size and it HAS standards for teacher credentialing. The schools (not the students, but the schools) FAILED to meet those standards. Would you order the schools' accreditation?</p>

<p>I agree they should go to school - nice, spiffy schools with bourgainvilla growing up the outsides, where classes have no more than 22 students, the teachers have advanced degrees and make $90+k a year, and the parents organize yacht parties instead of bake sales. Such schools are only 22 miles away from the ones attended by these kids, and I'm sure the parents of the kids in bourgainvillaville are ready and eager to have their kids trade places.</p>

<p>Frankly, until one is ready to trade places, the school fails Rawl's test of simple justice, which is why I don't think the judge had any particular difficulties in this case issuing an injunction, and why Governor Terminator was ready, even eager, to fork over a billion dollars in Williams v. California, until next time....(this time he got away cheap.)</p>

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<p>The tests are not written by the same people that write/publish the textbooks. Also, don't forget, California (like other states) uses different book publishers for different subjects (A school may use Houghton Mifflin for one subject, Prentice Hall for another, McGraw Hill for another, and so on).</p>

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<p>Mini: </p>

<p>I don't know what that last sentence means. </p>

<p>Maybe these schools don't deserve to keep their accreditation. </p>

<p>What does WASC say about accrediting the schools that you are upset about?</p>