Calling all lawyers, please

Parents Forum
1

<p>I know there are a lot of lawyer who read this board, and I am hoping that some of you can help me with this question. I think this board receives more traffic than the law school board, so am posting here, as I really need information soon. I hope this will be okay.
My daughter is in the process of law school results. Right now she has gotten into five schools and is waiting to hear from a few others. We have been told by everyone that she should go to the highest ranked law school she gets in. Three of her acceptances are top 25 schools, the other two were safeties and gave her great scholarships. Her remaining ones include one super reach and the rest within the top 25 also.<br>
Of the three top 25 schools one gave her enough money, that it would be reasonable for her to attend. To go to the others she will incur great debt. How much of an issue is this? She has no undergrad debt, but will for law school. Does it matter if she goes to the number 19 school over the number 15 school or the number 22 school over the number 13 school? How important is all this? And would you be willing to take on a huge debt for a top ten school when you could go to a top 20 for a lot less? </p>

<p>Thank you for your answers.</p>

2

<p>First, congratulations to your daughter. 3 top 25 schools is an excellent result. In my own opinion, you have a couple of issues to look at. Is she seriously focused on one particular area of the country to practice (NY, LA, Chicago, DC, etc?). If so, and if she is accepted to schools that are in that area, it is almost always a better idea to attend the "local" school, unless the schools in question are extremely unequal in prestige -- and it doesn't sound like that's the case. If future residence isn't an issue, I don't really think that the numbers you are talking (19 v. 15 v. 22 v. 13) make ANY difference. I, personally, would NOT take on huge debt for a Top 10 v. Top 20 school unless it were the top 5 (and even then I wouldn't, but I'm not going to deny that going to Harvard or Yale law school has some economic value). If there is any specific specialty she has in mind (particularly tax, international, intellectual property, or public policy) then she might want to take a look at USNEWS specialty rankings over the last few years. If she is really focused on Tax, for example, then she should take a very hard look at NYU, if that is one of her options. </p>

<p>Hope this helps.</p>

3

<p>H is a lawyer. I just asked him for you. He says top 5 is worth the debt, but after the first 5, he feels that it is not worth the debt, and a top 20 is where she should attend.</p>

4

<p>Agree with the previous post. Top 5 is worth it. HOWEVER-the further down you go the more important it is to be high in your law school class. Really helps with getting the best clerking jobs (after 2nd year) and offers for after graduation. In my city, the people from the local law school have the best connections and have done well career-wise. Top 5 or so opens a lot of doors, too.</p>

5

<p>Do a bit more digging as one of the previous posters suggested. Where does she think she wants to practice, and in what field? Then look at placement rates for those fields and areas at the various law schools.</p>

<p>Also how much is a lot of debt? If she lives frugally and is willing to take a large law firm job for a few years to pay it off, it will be extinguished quickly. The debt will be a bigger issue though if she is interested in public interest or some other lower-paying legal career and isn't willing to detour through a large, high-paying, hard-working firm first.</p>

6

<p>My H agrees with momofwildchild-- He says that a lot of doors are open when graduating from the top 5. </p>

<p>After that, as I mentioned, he does not feel the debt is worth it, and would recommend going to the top 20 school.</p>

7

<p>I agree with what has been posted. Does D know what area of the country she wishes to settle in? For my niece, she chose to come back to our state law school because she wanted to make connections & practice in our home state, even tho she got LOTS of merit aid at private law schools elsewhere.
I also agree that between the 6th & 25th law school, you'll have a lot of arguments about which is better & not many would argue that going into lots of debt to be a bit higher would be "worth" the extra debt. Doing well will get her a lot more recognition than the rep of the law school if it's all in the top tier anyway. Law school rankings (like all rankings) are not static anyway, they change over time, especially within a tier. While I was attending UCDavis & since graduating, the law school has risen in rank.</p>

8

<p>Ditto to the above. Keep in mind that the bar exam has a multi state part (good to practice in any state) but also a state specific part and this is easiest to pass if you have gone to law school in the state where you would like to practice. Doing well in your class and editor (or at least a member of) Law Review is probably more important among most schools that it sound like she's looking at than where you actually get your degree from.</p>

9

<p>Many of us end up taking the bar exam in whatever state we get our law degree from & then go on to also take the exam in the state we are planning to practice. They have review courses to help you understand the law specific to the state, but you make connections by going to school in the geographic area where you are planning to live & practice law. You can intern & also make friends with your classmates who may settle in the area.</p>

10

<p>Except for California, it isn't all that difficult to pass the bar by taking a review course in whatever state you wind up in. The key is getting that first good job. There are a LOT of lawyers out there. I personally think this is stupid, but my top 5 law school degree STILL opens doors for me- 30 years later!</p>

11

<p>Depends what you want to do. If you plan in practicing in a home state that is far from the northeast, you'll make more connections at one of the local law schools. Our current Governor went to Gonzaga. Our previous Governor went to the University of Washington. And if you look at the lists of politicians, public interest attorneys, attorneys general, one quickly finds there's hardly an Ivy or Stanford or Chicago or Duke to be found. However, if you go to corporate boardrooms, you'll find plenty, and it will certainly be an advantage. </p>

<p>In our state, a law degree is not required to sit for the bar. </p>

<p>Public interest or public sector jobs can be hard to find, depending on the state. In our state (hardly a low-cost, low-rent backwater), an entering assistant attorney general, which requires a degree and two years of experience, pays $38k. There were more than 300 applicants for the last opening, including lots of folks from top 20 law schools.</p>

12

<p>What kind of law does she want to practice?</p>

<p>I wanted to practice the kind of law where you hang out a shingle and wait for clients to show up, and that's exactly what I did, straight out of law school. So my priority was to find a school that would give me lots of internship/co-op type opportunities (so I could gain experience while I was in school), and wouldn't leave me with lots of debt (so I could afford to manage on my own). It happened that I could get that with a top ranked school (Boalt) - but that's not the case any more. My 2nd choice after Boalt would have been Northeastern, because of their co-op structure. </p>

<p>If your daughter is interested in doing public interest work, or government work for a public agency, she is better off going to a reputable law school she can afford. Reputable means accredited; it doesn't necessarily mean prestigious. When I practiced law in SF with a small firm we would do our hiring from Golden Gate U. - the profs there are practicing lawyers, so the students come out with excellent practical training. Freshly minted law grads from Boalt or Hastings couldn't find their way to the courthouse - much less know what you were talking about when you asked them to draft a "notice of motion". </p>

<p>If your daughter wants to do corporate work with the big bucks law firms then yes - she should opt for prestige. The big firms do their hiring from law school interviews, and they only interview at the top firms OR at the flagship state U's for the states where they are located. </p>

<p>But I have to warn you, and her: that stuff is no fun, and working hours are horrendous. So it all comes down to why she wants to be a lawyer and whether she would like to have a life apart from her career.</p>

13

<p>My b-in-l graduated from Stanford Law, editor of Law Review.. and yes doors opened wide for him after graduation. Immediately after graduating he clerked for a state Supreme Court justice and then was snapped up by the most prestigious firm in a big city. But today, he is a sole practitioner in a ski-resort town...he does quite well and as far as I know, he is quite happy.</p>

<p>He went to Stanford on a partial scholarship, so he did leave with substantial debt. Could he have ended up in the same place with a JD from a less prestigious school? Undoubtedly, but I don't think he would do anything differently. Stanford was a wonderful experience for him...and sometimes it can just be about that.</p>

<p>(And the fact that my d refused to apply at Stanford just kills him...lol!)</p>

14

<p>First, there's really no such thing as a "top 5" or "top 10" law school. While there may be a few quibbles, the levels are usually regarded this way:</p>

<p>"The trinity": Yale, Harvard, Stanford
"CCN" : Columbia, UChicago, NYU
The rest of the top 14: Duke, Georgetown, Cornell, UMichigan, Boalt (UCal Berkeley), UPenn, UVirginia, Northwestern (in no particular order)
There are also two schools generally viewed as being as good as the rest of the top 14, except for the fact that they are not as geographically diverse: UCLA and UTexas-Austin. (If you want to practice in Texas, you're probably better off going to UT-A than any of the 7-14 law schools.)</p>

<p>It's really the tiers that matter---not the actual rank. The drop off from 16 to 17 is more important than the drop from 20 to 28. If you are comparing $ within the 7-14 range, the actual rank doesn't matter that much. I wouldn't advise choosing UMichigan over Georgetown if Georgetown is a lot cheaper, after merit awards. </p>

<p>So, IMO, if your D can get into any of the top 14 (or UCLA if she wants to practice in California or UT-A for Texas), she should give serious consideration to attending. Once you get below that level, it's usually wise to go to the strongest law school in the geogrpahic area in which you wish to practice. Thus, while UMinnesota and UIowa both are ranked in the top 25, while Fordham is usually regarded in the 26-30 range, at least by USNews, if you want to practice in New York, you're probably better off attending Fordham than either of the other two. </p>

<p>Second, some law schools have generous loan forgiveness programs which allow students to repay only a certain % of their law school debt if they go into public service and earn a low salary. The better schools tend to have better loan forgiveness programs. Thus, if you are certain that you want to go into public interest law, it may actually be cheaper to go to a top law school and take on a ton of debt--you may never have to repay a penny of it, while you might have to repay a smaller loan from a less highly ranked school. So, IMO, one of the MOST important aspects of choosing among law schools is knowing the loan forgiveness policy. (Older attorneys are often unfamiliar with these and will warn students interested in public interest careers to avoid taking on lots of debt. ) </p>

<p>Third, the more selective law schools are also more likely to give need-based aid, based on family finances. Check to see if any of the schools she has applied to are on the <a href="http://www.needaccess.org%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.needaccess.org&lt;/a> list and whether you may qualify. </p>

<p>Hope that helps.</p>

15

<p>Hi. Spouse is a lawyer and turned down two higher tier schools (from list of top 14 above) with zip money offered for a law school that was also respected (Vandy) and offered partial scholarship.<br>
This is such an individual decision. Many Vandy classmates had total support from parents and did not even pick up any part time jobs in law school. He had no help from home so all costs were assumed. He bought used books, lived cheaply and took out loans which took a decade to pay off but were not hugely burdensome.
Keep in mind that law school is a grind and has some downer aspects. I would suggest weighing "mental health" fit as well as prestige and money aspects for any grad school. Vandy is in a friendly capitol city with a good quality of life even if you are shabby grad school poor, and therefore there were ample options for clerking for judges, for interning in the legislature and for Public Defender type work as well as for running into many people actually practicing law, not just hanging with academics in law. Lots of fun things to do that are also almost free to cut the tension level.
Also if you have your heart set on big city corporate, then you may want a prestige name, but I agree with Jonri..it helps to attend a law school that has some relevance to a region of the USA that you like for future nesting and working. Spouse is licensed in three states and his law school name was plenty strong for landing interviews. After a handful of years, it is your personal reputation and your grasp of your cities and state's nuances that will matter more than a prestige college name.</p>

16

<p>Thanks for all the responses. D currently seems interested in public interest work, but is concerned about making any money. I am going to have her check about loan forgiveness for this type of work from the schools in which she is interested. </p>

<p>It is interesting to note that class rank may hold more weight than which of the top 25 she attends, but the top 5 trumps it all. She actually did not apply to any top five schools and only one top 10, which she hasn't heard from yet. </p>

<p>The school which offers her the best deal is top 20, but she visited and did not like it. She liked the programs the schools offers, but when she went there was turned off by the tour guide and the people she met. We are encouraging her to dig a little deeper and speak with people she knows who go there and perhaps visit again. School offered to pay for visit.</p>

<p>Again, thanks so much for all the responses. They have really helped to clarify things.</p>

17

<p>Unless you propose to attend a top five school, and even then in some cases, my advice is to go to school in the city where you plan to work. The connections and friendships you make during law school will yield rewards for decades thereafter.</p>

<p>Besides, most of what you learn in law school you teach yourself.</p>

<p>No one ever asks on the courthouse steps where you went to school. The other side couldn't care less--they're worried about losing.</p>

18

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<p>Can be a good description of the practice of law also.</p>

19

<p>I liked law school. I was exposed to the smartest students and professors I could ever have imagined (also some of the strangest). Now the PRACTICE of law- a real mixed-bag. I have spent my career in-house, and have loved some of it and hated my last two jobs with dysfunctional companies. I still value the tools I acquired in law school and throughout my career.</p>

20

<p>If she is geared toward public interest work, then I have to reiterate that rankings & prestige mean nothing. My first law job as a student was in a legal aid office where the supervisor & the managing attorney was a night law school grad. Law is definitely a profession where you rise or fall based on your demonstrated ability and performance. </p>

<p>I went to Boalt and am glad I chose it, but one of the worst aspects of law school is that I found myself surrounded by so many students who aspired to be big firm/corporate lawyers. I felt out of place and had to work to find my social niche. At least I chose Boalt -- from what I heard, UCLA would have been a lot worse. I had a friend geared to public service (he later became a DA) who did a one-year exchange to Harvard and he was miserable. </p>

<p>Many of the "lesser" schools are much, much stronger in terms of providing practical training. There is an enormous diference between what is taught in law school and what real life practice of law is like -- it is almost like there are two different worlds, and the law profs are talking about a different one than the one we live in. Many of the professors at the top law schools are intellectual giants who have never spent a day in a courtroom and are sorely out of touch with reality. And a good deal of what is taught in law school is archaic: important to our education as lawyers, but bearing very little relevance to current practice of law. For example, after my first year Real Property class I fully understood all the concepts of land ownership that prevailed in feudal times -- I certainly understood the Rule Against Perpetuities. But I wouldn't have known the first thing about how to go about buying or selling a house in California. I knew nothing about any of that until I went to work for a real estate litigation firm, and I can guarantee you that we never once ran into a Perpetuities problem. </p>

<p>Bottom line:
1) Your daughter should go where she is most comfortable, and if she is worried about her future income, she should definitely choose the most affordable school. The most important thing to her future career is that she is able to seek a job in that arena immediately or very soon after graduation -- experience & seniority counts, so you don't want to get saddled with so much debt that you can't afford to take the job you really want.</p>

<p>2) Law school really is a decision for the student to make -- time for parents to back off. I say this in part because my lawyer ex-husband has had to spent a life time fending off the unwanted advice his mother relays from her hairdresser. My parents thankfully stayed out of it all, despite the fact that my dad is a lawyer. (My grandmother did contribute the helpful observation that our family already had too many lawyers). If your daughter felt uncomfortable at the school she visited, then it is probably not going to be a good place for her. (Though who knows? It never even occured to me to visit any of the law schools I was interested in before I applied.)</p>