<p>I agree with everything CalMom said, especially the part about what you're taught in law school has very little practical application to the actual practice of law. My husband and I are both attorneys. </p>
<p>A law school degree from a prestigious school gets you your first job; beyond that - you're on your own! My husband and I went to State U law school because neither one of us could afford a private school or out of state tuition. We felt that we received an excellent education. The REAL learning occurs when you're out on the job and out of school, though.</p>
<p>I don't practice (work for a legal publishing company), but my husband does. He routinely beats the pants off of the Harvard, Yale, Stanford, etc. grads in court. No insult intended to anyone who went to a prestige school, but it has little bearing on how "good" of an attorney you'll be. Smart and talented people are everywhere.</p>
<p>Your daughter should go where she feels the most comfortable, because it could be a LONG 3 years if she ends up somewhere that she hates. Good luck to your daughter.</p>
<p>to deviate just slightly from the original question, does the D of the OP have experience working in the legal area? Internships, work in a law office, etc? I'm not a lawyer but have some in the family, and I've heard a lot of kids in college enter law as the default option because they haven't decided what they wanted to do after college. So my distinctively non-legal advice is to make sure the D really wants to be a lawyer and knows what she'd getting into before she sinks 3 years of her life into it.</p>
<p>Yeah, sinking 3 years + LOTS of $$$ to get a career where you are miserable sounds really poor. I know of folks who have quit law after practicing for 10 years because they HATE it & are now working at jobs that pay a fraction of what they used to be making but their health has improved & they're happier now. Others love law, but interning can be a real eye-opener.</p>
<p>D has done internships in two very different areas of law and has specific interests.</p>
<p>As parents we are well aware of the "lawyer dissatisfaction rate" and are consequently leary of her taking on too much debt, incase she finds out this is not the career for her. </p>
<p>Again I appreciate everyone's responses. She has some tough decisions to make and hopefully this added information will help her.</p>
<p>I would also agree with what Calmom said. A top tier law degree is definitely helpful in getting that first high income money-based legal job - but of very little help in other circumstances. In my experience top tier school graduates generally do not make the best trial lawyers, for example. And it is also true that a lot of law school graduates are not practicing law five or seven years later, so it's a lot of money for an uncertain payoff. So unless your daughter wants to get a high pressure, long hour, downtown highrise law firm job in a major city, I'd recommend the cheapest good quality school she can attend - preferably in the area she intends to work in after graduation.</p>
<p>I repeat what I said earlier- in my career my top tier law school STILL helps me get jobs (30 years later). I don't think it should, but it continues to open doors. This is in the corporate world (in-house). Don't under-estimate the prestige factor. Does it have anything to do with how good of a lawyer I am? Maybe. I learned a lot from my peers and my instructors in law school- skills such as constructing an argument and finding solutions.</p>
<p>I respectfully disagree with the advice that it doesn't matter where you attend law school if you want to go into public interest. "Public interest" covers the gamut of many different things. Moreover, there's an oversupply of attorneys now. </p>
<p>I'm a middle-aged parent and attorney and also have a kid in law school with an interest in public service. Said kid has a gazillion friends at other law schools as well. Kid's a "save the world" type and so are most of kid's friends. If anything, they've found that for the "hot" public interest jobs, where you went matters a lot. </p>
<p>It may well be that in Washington state or Hawaii, you can get a job as an ADA no matter where you went to law school. That's just not true in some cities. One of my kid's friends is now a federal public defender in a major city--NOT NYC, LA, Boston or Chicago. The competition to get the job was unreal. We are talking 300 applicants for every opening. All of those interviewed had to pay their own way to visit the office. In such circumstances, where you got your law degree does matter. To get the kind of work she wanted, she ended up in a city with which she had no previous connection. She got the job because she attended a school in the top 6 AND had lots of clinical defense experience. </p>
<p>Maybe if you were lucky enough to be a <em>star</em> at the local law school in the city with openings, there wouldn't be a problem. My neighbor from a law school ranked in the top 100, but not the top 50 couldn't get a public interest job. He went to law school in NYC and grew up here. He was about a third of the way down in his class. He did not get an interview with any of the 5 district attorney's offices in New York. He submitted a resume to the same office in which my kid's friend works. He did not get an interview. Nobody from his law school did. </p>
<p>When it comes to the "prestige" public interest jobs, e.g., AUSA (Assistant United States Attorney) in one of the prestigious offices--e.g., the Southern District of New York--where you went to law school matters. When it comes to programs like the honors program for the Department of Justice, where you went to law school matters. When it comes to working for one of the major think tanks or policy groups--e.g., the Children's Defense Fund, where Hilary Rodham Clinton got her start--the law school matters. </p>
<p>Now, I am NOT saying that if you don't go to a top 14 law school it's impossible for you to get one of these jobs---it isn't. But, it's one heck of a lot easier to get one if you did--especially if the job isn't one in the region in which you attended law school. Sometimes when the economy in a particular city is bad, it's hard to get a job there. Having a "national" law school's name on your resume does help.</p>
<p>Momof5, the other big factor to consider is that most women lawyers find that combining a law career with childrearing has a significant impact on income. Many opt for part-time work -- and the good news is that there is plenty of it and the hourly rate is high enough that a talented lawyer can earn an good income and at the same time maintain a lifestlye that provides a lot of free time for home and family. That's where the high hourly billing rate for lawyers comes in handy, especially since working moms learn quickly to be very efficient in how they use their time.</p>
<p>The down side is that, in most cases, that takes the woman off the career track for the highest paying positions. In other words, the mom who goes to part-time status with the firm may be opting out of the partnership track -- or she may find that she needs to leave the big firm to work with a smaller firm or agency in order to get that flexibility. </p>
<p>So again: that goes to earning capacity. Personally, even though I do not currently practice law, I like the fact that I always have something to fall back on where there is a high hourly billing rate. The cool thing about a law degree is that once you are admitted to the State Bar, you can opt to work from home, directly with clients, and just keep the caseload down. </p>
<p>There are exceptions, of course -- but it still goes to quality of life. Again: debt can be a barrier.</p>
<p>I am an attorney in Philadelphia with a specialty in civil litigation. I have been a litigator for 33 years. Some of the most amazing trial lawyers I know went to law schools that some would consider second tier. I agree that the first job out can be gained by a top tier school diploma. However that first job working 60 to 70 hours for a demanding partner may be glorified gut work. I prefer solid grads from a good school who exhibit that X factor as a new hire. A person who seeks mentoring. I personally feel it's not the school in the top 10 that is the key but rather the internships and contacts you make in school that help with the jobs. Unless you graduate top 10% or law review you won't get clerkships. So tell your law student to get a good summer lawfirm job or a Court internship. Volunteer at local bar association to meet local lawyers.</p>
<p>I went to George Washington University law school in D.C. It was a fantastic school for internships on The Hill, in lawfirms and in public service. I don't think a first year law student really knows where he/she will end up until they take various courses and tries summer work in area. I think it best to go to a national lawschool over regional, unless, you know you want to practice in a certain field and in a certain region. Remember the old saying that the A student teaches law and the C students are the best lawyers. I see that all of the time. Philly has thousands of great , sucessful attornies that went to schools like Temple,American etc who I would hire any day of the week.</p>
<p>I am a long-time (never mind how long) practicing attorney who has spent most of my career in-house but now sit in an office in a specialized law firm. Our city, San Fransciso, is the place where huge numbers of law school graduates and lawyers want to come to live - except for those who want to live in NY, Chicago, Washington DC or Los Angeles (yes, some people do want to live there). Openings here (including at our firm and including for in-house positions) have large numbers of applicants from all over the country, with all kinds of law degrees, such that we and other employers can decide on our criteria for hiring. We can decide what weight to give to the school, the grades, whether the student has won awards, law review, practical experience, whatever, so long as it's legal.</p>
<p>This is all an intro to saying that I agree with pretty much what Calmom and Coloradomom have to say. Your D should think seriously about why she wants to be a lawyer, then about which field of law interests her (it's not clear to me that "public interest" means working as a prosecuting or criminal defense attorney; she may be thinking of working for a nonprofit in a certain field, say environmental law).</p>
<p>Looking to go into national public interest law? Look at the best school that she's admitted to in Washington DC. Local politics? Look at the best local or regional school in that area and how they do in providing clerkships. A specialty, say environmental law? Look for schools known to have fine programs in that field AND internship oportunities. Those conections can make a big difference in her competition with others for these posts. Jonri's point that there is an oversupply of lawyers ought to be given consideration. A top student in a reasonably good law school will have opportunities. An ordinary student, i.e. most of the class, will have to find a way to make a good opportunity, maybe any opportunity, happen (I'm really sorry to have to say that).</p>
<p>Looking for a school with a good "feel" can be important. Law school provides enough discomfort all by itself without making things worse by attending one that doesn't seem to be a "good fit". On the other hand, your D is no longer a high school student looking for a good place to grow. Could be that the best school for her, careerwise, may not be the most comfortable - but she needs to be able to take some such situation eventually (sorry for the unsolicited advice; ignore if you wish).
And that's enough from me (maybe more than enough).</p>
<p>My problem with your advice (which is good) is that how do you KNOW what area of law appeals to you at the time you are choosing a law school? I sure didn't have any idea I wanted to practice in-house at that point. I didn't even know there WAS such a thing as in-house practice! Back in my day a lot of my classmates entered law school determined to come out and save the downtrodden. Most of them wound up clerking for federal judges or going to the biggest law firms in the country.</p>
<p>dadofsam says:
"Looking to go into national public interest law? Look at the best school that she's admitted to in Washington DC. "</p>
<p>If you really want to go into national public interest law, go to YHS if you can get in. (YHS= Yale, Harvard, Stanford). Here's a site that will give you some idea of the public interest opportunities available to Harvard Law students:</p>
<p>The top schools even give students funding their education with at least some loans summer stipends so that they can accept no pay/low pay jobs with various public interest groups during the summer. </p>
<p>Moreover, once again, CHECK THE LOAN FORGIVENESS PROGRAMS. For students interested in public service, they are EXTREMELY important.</p>
<p>This is an excellent thread with great comments. My spouse and I are both lawyers, working in large law firms and our own firm for the past 25 years. Our son will be applying to law school in a year and I'm going to copy this for him to read and think about.</p>
<p>I second the comments by calmom and jonri. In addition:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Even though they are college graduates and in their mid-twenties, it's my experience that most first-year law students don't know what kind of law they want to practice. They may think they know what they want to do - and usually they want to be defense lawyers, public interest lawyers, or plain old "rich" lawyers because those are the lawyers they've seen in the movies or on TV - but often they end up doing something completely different by the time they graduate from law school. So I wouldn't put much emphasis on the kind of law she thinks she wants to practice unless she specifically knows someone who does it and she knows it appeals to her. The main people I knew in law school who actually ended up practicing the kind of law after graduation that they had talked about as first-year students were people who joined the family law firm after graduation.</p></li>
<li><p>I guess this comment will expose me as politically incorrect. Nevertheless, does your daughter want to have children? If so, the high-powered career is hard unless you are willing to hire a full-time nanny or have a stay-at-home dad. I know many lawyers who have done this successfully but, as strange as it sounds, I think now is the time to think about this issue. For one thing, most people want to live near their extended family after they have children. Thus, your daughter may be willing to relocate for law school and her career, but once she has children she may want to live near you.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>I moved home to HI to start my career specifically so I'd raise my kids & have my family in HI--had been thinking of living in CA for a while otherwise. Wanted to be with my extended family who all moved back to HI.</p>
<p>Geography is a huge factor. Also, some schools have much better placement into public service than others - not necessarily by quality of school.</p>
<p>I know that I harp on this, but I swear it's for a good reason. Pick up USNews Graduate Edition and flip to the back. Yes, the back, away from the rankings. It gives percentages of students who go into different types of work (private sector, public interest, clerkships gov't, non-legal); geographic distribution of grads; median income (good to compare this to the average debt - more indebted students will go for, all other things being equal, the higher-paying job); and a whole lot of other fun stuff. Your D should find the school that most looks like "her." </p>
<p>Consider how comfortable she is with taking on debt.</p>
<p>Some loan forgiveness programmes don't pay out to married students if the other spouse is working or earning above a certain salary. If she sees this happening in law school, she shouldn't rely on loan forgiveness. (I've lost count of the number of engagements I've heard about this year, fyi.) </p>
<p>See what each school has to offer in they way of clinics for students interested in public service. Ask students how easy it is to get those positions - does everyone get one, or is it competitive? See if the school has law journals focused on public interest.</p>
<p>While I agree that many (or most) lawyers end up doing something different with their careers than they expected when they started law school, I don't think anyone should go to law school unless they have a very good idea of what they want to do with the law degree, and a strong desire to do whatever that is.</p>
<p>The reason I say that is that law school is an intense commitment and incredibly expensive -- and it is quite possible that the person who is uncertain will find out that they don't like law school and don't really want a law career after all. Now that was fine back when I went to school - my tuition at Boalt in the 70's was about $750/year. Even in 1975 dollars that was cheap. But these days the financial investment is just too high. </p>
<p>That doesn't mean that a person can't change their mind. But it is one thing to start out with a passion, then discover another passion and make a change ... quite another to start out with a sense of uncertainty and never quite find one's bearings. I think a student who is not sure of what type of law practice he/she wants should spend some time after college working before starting law school, just to get a better sense of what she wants in a career. Many of my law school classmates were older students who had been out of college for several years before starting law school - they tended to do very well, and I think that their work experience probably put them at an advantage when it was time to interview with firms.</p>
<p>Momofwild is right - it matters immensely to lawyers where one goes to law school. </p>
<p>Although ridiculous, like Mom, I can obtain jobs twenty years out of law school over well qualified applicants (some of whom may not even be seriously considered) because of the Editor of the Law Review thingy from a top 10 law school. I also know of top law firms that won't even bring on a lateral partner with a good book of business (but let's concede that it is only with the snobbiest of the bunch) unless he or she has the requisite sterling credentials. This shouldn't surprise people who work around lawyers - they typically are not very good businesspeople (bill by the hour is one of the worst business metrics in existence) and would rather rely on credentials than make an independent, business-like judgment of someone's skills. They would rather let the law schools sort out who is smart or not - a crude mechanism if there ever was one. </p>
<p>Unless one is fortunate enough to live in Virginia, Michigan or California, and gets in Uva, UMich, or Cal, my advice is to go to the best darn school you can get in, and once in, try and act and think like a lawyer (which is far different than undergrad where one just throws information back to a professor) as soon as possible. I did not study much in law school, but when I did, it was with a tenacious focus. This is what it takes. Recognize further that most undergraduate schools do not do a good job of preparing people for law school - students don't learn how to write well enough and in particular don't learn how to do it quickly and under pressure. No surprise to me that several of my fellow law reviewers were journalism majors with a few years of journalism under their belts. (I was a futures trader for a couple of years after college- who then traded the prospect of lots of money for an education - it was great preparation for law school - the job compelled smart split second decisions - but I don't recommend it for everyone). </p>
<p>Note that even if one doesn't end up in the practice of law being "higher up on the law school food chain, so to speak, will afford more opportunity, even in field like public interest law (where dollars are tight and credentials still matter). And given that many lawyers end up disliking at least one if not more jobs intensely, that flexibility is important.</p>