Calling Alumni Interviewers!

Parents Social Lounge
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<p>It was not the action itself that was impressive, but the impetus behind it. From an objective point of view by her actions one could judge: a)that she is self motivated, b)undertook the activity solely for non-selfish ends, and c) that her actions were authentic. So many students undertake activities and ECs with the sole basis of getting into colleges, that I would suspect Northstarmom was refreshed to find a student who did something solely for the intrinsic merit of the action itself.</p>

<p>It is the intangible qualities demonstrated above that top schools seek, and it is what differentiates those who are admitted form those who are not. I am sure that this girl in question was probably a top student with top notch grades as well otherwise she would have had no chance at Harvard.</p>

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<p>This happens alot actually. Out of just a few people I know here one did research on colon cancer, another was one of the best tennis players in the nation, another the 3rd best speaker in the country, and others were THE national champions in foreign extemporaneous speaking and Lincoln-Douglass debate. Multiple people here were outstanding musicians, an EMT, neurobiology researchers, and another girl started a program to bring music instruments to underprivileged kids. And that is only among the people I personally know. </p>

<p>The best part about all of this though, is that on any given weekend you can find all these amazing people drunk singing songs in a dirty frat frat house :slight_smile: If people on CC were ever to discover what those who get in did then they would understand why admissions officers readily pass over a 2400, 4.0 for a 2200, 3.8.</p>

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<p>“It was not the action itself that was impressive, but the impetus behind it. From an objective point of view by her actions one could judge: a)that she is self motivated, b)undertook the activity solely for non-selfish ends, and c) that her actions were authentic. So many students undertake activities and ECs with the sole basis of getting into colleges, that I would suspect Northstarmom was refreshed to find a student who did something solely for the intrinsic merit of the action itself.”</p>

<p>Yes, Dbate is exactly right. That’s the kind of information that can come out in an interview, essay or recommendations. You can’t look at a person’s stats and tell that the person has that kind of passion. </p>

<p>Unless one understands the rarity and importance of students (with the stats top schools require) who do community service, research, ECs, academics for the pure joy of doing the action, feeding their minds, making a difference, it’s impossible to understand why as Dbate put it: " admissions officers readily pass over a 2400, 4.0 for a 2200, 3.8."</p>

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<p>While I agree with the consensus that high school should be fun and that those who end up at top universities really enjoy what they’re doing, I think its unfair to not take into account the amount of planning that must take place. I hate math and science but have taken AP courses in those disciplines because it would look bad if I didn’t, a situation that I know I’m not alone in. I applied rd everywhere (didn’t feel ready) and my classmates think I’m an idiot for not taking the “early advantage”. I dropped an AP course first semester (against the advice of my GC) because I was getting no sleep; I fell asleep at the wheel for a few seconds which caused a minor car accident that I was involved in.
I don’t know about you guys, but to be honest applying to college had made me come to the realization that I’m not “enough”; not smart enough, not hardworking enough, not dedicated enough to end up at my first choice, Yale. It’s sad, but I’m glad this realization came to me before that April day when I will receive decisions.
College admissions is a game, unfortunately; with the exception of low income students, I think its extremely difficult for a kid to end up at a top university without knowing what kind of school that they want to end up at and what you need to do to end up there. For me, I just wish that I realized that I was pushing myself way too far.</p>

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<p>"While I agree with the consensus that high school should be fun and that those who end up at top universities really enjoy what they’re doing, I think its unfair to not take into account the amount of planning that must take place. I hate math and science but have taken AP courses in those disciplines because it would look bad if I didn’t, a situation that I know I’m not alone in.</p>

<p>It’s far better to follow your own academic and EC interests and then as a junior or senior apply to schools that are the best fit.</p>

<p>That’s a more fulfilling strategy than picking a school and then trying to make oneself into what you think the school wants.</p>

<p>The time that you spent taking AP courses in subjects that you hated probably would have been better spent taking courses that you loved. If you had excelled in those courses, those courses may have prepared you for Yale. Even if they didn’t, those courses and experiences probably would have prepared you for a good school that would have matched your interests and talents. </p>

<p>For instance, if you’re more arts orientated, you may have been better prepared for Brown, which allows students to take classes at Rhode Island School of Design.</p>

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<p>I never tried to fit myself into what I believed Yale wanted to see; I just knew that I wanted to go to a top school going into high school.
Is that wrong? It may be, but I don’t really think that people “accidentally” end up at a top school in the same way that I don’t think people accidentally become valedictorian. It takes hard work and initiative to be ranked 1 in your class (whatever high school you go to) just as it takes hard work and initiative to gain admission to a top college. I had actually started to like Yale after realizing that it had strong resources in many of the disciplines that I like (drama, art, humanities) while still maintaining diversity in an urban area.<br>
It’s just hard as a high student to not want to put yourself in the best position possible. Every college recommends taking the hardest courseload possible and if you believe that you can intellectually handle it, why wouldn’t you? Life is about doing things you might not want to necessarily do but have to - like taking challenging courses because it’s what is expected of you. </p>

<p>As an aside, I actually applied to Brown (had my interview yesterday!) too for the reason that you mentioned. I don’t know what school I’ll end up at, but whatever it is, I believe it will be for the best. I think that people end up at the schools that they’re meant to be at, whether or not they realize it as a hs senior</p>

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<p>Certainly some will be admitted for depth of academic accomplishment, but in general, top schools are looking for people who will lead in all areas in the future. This is why ECs are so important to them. Leadership among peers, community action and the like give them a strong sign that these kids will be movers and shakers.</p>

<p>They want some brilliant writers and mathematicians too, but look at who the top schools largely produce–business leaders, politicians and political strategists, financiers and the like. These folks don’t need top academics.</p>

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<p>My S2, who is at an Ivy, excelled in math and science but most definitely not in english, history, and other humanities. He didn’t take APs in those subjects or even honors, but he still landed at a top school. He also had some unique ECs that he was passionate about. IMO, it shows that the top schools don’t want people who are excellent at everything; they want people who are excellent and passionate about some things.</p>

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<p>VeryHappy’s post is a great example of what I was referring to earlier. By following his interests, the student had the time to excel in his interests, and ended up in a school that fit him, which happened to be an Ivy.</p>

<p>If he had forced himself to take APs in English, history, and the humanities, he wouldn’t have had the time to devote himself so intensely to the ECs and academics that he was passionate about. He wouldn’t have accomplished as much in his fields of interest, and he probably wouldn’t have landed in an Ivy or a place where he could have run with his talents and interests.</p>

<p>That’s why students should devote themselves to following their interests as deeply and creatively as possible. Then, they should look for colleges that match their interests. </p>

<p>Depending on what one’s interests are, Ivies may not be the best place to find a good match or to have the best chances of becoming a great success in one’s chosen field. I know people who have turned down Ivies because other schools met their academic needs better.</p>

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<p>Would a person who did this still have “most rigorous curriculum” checked on their transcript?</p>

<p>Because I’ve read probably over 100 posts on here that say if that’s not checked you have little chance at a top school. Obviously this student did. So is that business about the “most rigorous curriculum” true?</p>

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<p>"Would a person who did this still have “most rigorous curriculum” checked on their transcript?</p>

<p>Because I’ve read probably over 100 posts on here that say if that’s not checked you have little chance at a top school. Obviously this student did. So is that business about the “most rigorous curriculum” true?"</p>

<p>You don’t have to have the most rigorous curriculum to get into an Ivy. You need to have a rigorous curriculum for the high school that you attend. Most of the people who post on CC are high school students and some parents who are well meaning, but don’t have all of the facts.</p>

<p>Someone who, for instance, made extraordinary accomplishments in history, languages, art, music by taking extra classes in that while not taking APs in math or science could get in over someone who took APs across the board, but didn’t have any extraordinary accomplishments. For instance, a National History Fair winner who hadn’t taken AP science or math probably still would have a far better chance of getting into an Ivy than most applicants have. That’s because National History Fair winners have done projects that are college or even graduate school level. </p>

<p>The applications are looked at holistically. It’s not like there’s a checkoff and if a student has certain scores, grades, and class rank, they’re automatically admitted.</p>

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<p>On another note, schools also look for students who have demonstrated certain qualities, such as perseverance and loyalty, for another reason. Aside from the chance that the students will go out into the world and be a success , of more immediate concern to the school is the likelihood that student will stay put all four years and graduate -something that is important to retention stats and ranking of the school. They definitely look for evidence that the student is not of a “fickle” mindset. Loyalty can also be seen as a positive in terms of the chances for future involvement with the school and/or donations. When you put yourself in the place of the school and the bottom line , a lot of these things come down to common sense.</p>

<p>Schools also like and are reassured to see evidence of the characteristics they look for in a consistent way throughout the application - so even if the essay says something that you’d have no way of otherwise knowing, it can be a plus if WHAT it says about the student (ie passionate, curious, creative), is mirrored in other areas of the app - letters of recommendation, activities etc. </p>

<p>bovertine - You can’t always make blanket statements (either way). Depends on the college you are talking about and whether or not they can easily choose (from a given particular geographic area, desired demographic, HS) from students with “most rigorous curriculum” AND that level of passion or talent for a particular activity. In general, you make a valid point.</p>

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<p>Okay. I am talking about parents who seem to be generaly well regarded by other posters as knowing something. They always talk about “most rigorous curriculum.” I can’t remember exactly where I’ve read this, but several places on CC I’m sure, possibly even from people posting in this thread. But like I said, I can’t remember where. They actually talk about guidance counselors certifying “most rigorous curriculum.”
I’m not arguing, because I have no idea what’s true or not. But, I do see a lot of conflicting information on here.</p>

<p>Here’s an example - it talks about taking the “hardest curriculum available” at the high school.</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/822013-hardest-curriculum-available.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/822013-hardest-curriculum-available.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Edit- Now that I look at this thread again it looks like there isn’t even agreement on here. So I guess it boils down to “it depends.”</p>

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<p>I agree completely with this statement, but disagree with the meaning ascribed to it in context. I think if a student goes to a high school where the norm is to take multiple AP classes, it is very difficult for him or her to get accepted at ultra-selective colleges without keeping up with the Joneses. </p>

<p>My children’s high school was not one of those AP-happy schools where kids graduate with 12-14 APs. The norm for top students was 5-7, and 8 was pretty much the theoretical maximum. The guidance counselors, however, absolutely refused to check the “most rigorous” box for students who did not take any science or math APs, and as a practical matter it was virtually impossible for a student to be ranked in the top 5% of the class at the time of college applications without having taken three APs by the end of 11th grade.</p>

<p>Looking at what the colleges did, it would be hard to conclude that they didn’t care about class rank and “most rigorous curriculum”. While my kids were there, no one ranked lower than 7 or 8 at the time of application was accepted at HYS, and no one ranked lower than 10 or so (top 2%) was accepted at any highly selective college other than Penn (which accepted 20-30 kids per class then, including a number of URMs) and, in a couple of cases, one year, Cornell. (To be perfectly fair, so many students in the top 5% but not the top 10 either applied ED to Penn or planned to attend a public university in any event that other highly selective colleges often never saw applications from the most attractive of those students.)</p>

<p>The kids who DID get into highly selective colleges were exactly as Northstarmom describes, except they were also kids who had made certain to take Calculus BC and at least two lab science APs (and English Lit and US History) and to have done well in them, regardless of where their passions lay. Kids who were equally passionate, and sometimes more accomplished, but who didn’t have the “most rigorous curriculum” or hadn’t done quite as well in it were not successful with their applications to those colleges.</p>

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<p>I hope the alum interview process does not eliminate kids simply because they wouldn’t be a good guest at a dinner party. There are many types of kids and many types of passions - some are sports related.</p>

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<p>There isn’t one magical formula for getting into an Ivy. I’m pretty sure my oldest had checked off “most rigorous” for his curriculum, after all he had the big three AP sciences and was a year beyond Calculus. He also took APUSH and AP Econ. However not only did he not take either of the AP English course (though they were offered) he also didn’t even take Honors English thinking it would be more fun and more interesting to take an English elective. He had a lot of computer science experience outside school and was able to teach himself what the school didn’t offer. I’ve heard Yale,Dartmouth and other Ivy admissions officers all say that they don’t expect students to take every AP offered in the school, but of course they’d like to see some - especially in the areas that interest the student. At our school 6 to 10 APs seems to be the sweet spot. Most science kids took at least a couple of non-science APs and the reverse would be true too. But a non-science kid probably won’t be taking all the science APs.</p>

<p>In general I’d say students accepted at Ivy’s tend to be pretty strong across the board, but with something else to offer as well - it may be ECs, it may be an academic interest, it may be sports, or they may just get lucky and write and essay or have a teacher recommendation that sings.</p>

<p>I only know where the top 25 kids went in my older son’s class (that was about the top 2%). Number 25 went to Brown. As for my younger son - he just missed top 5% - he’s into Chicago - which has a nice high USNWR rating, but of course is easier to get into than lower rated Ivies. We’ll see if he gets into the two Ivy’s he’s applying to - I’ll be surprised if he does, but you never know. I wasn’t expecting him to get into Chicago EA either. (BTW he also skipped out on honors or AP English as a senior.)</p>

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<p>“I hope the alum interview process does not eliminate kids simply because they wouldn’t be a good guest at a dinner party. There are many types of kids and many types of passions - some are sports related.”</p>

<p>If an Ivy applicant’s only passion is sports, they’d probably be much happier at a different type of school</p>

<p>For Harvard, the interview is in part to determine whether the student would make a good roommate so the dinner party analogy is true. Remember, most students who apply to Ivies have the academic background that would allow them to graduate from an Ivy so what they add to the mix as a peer is very important.</p>

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<p>“like I said, I can’t remember where. They actually talk about guidance counselors certifying “most rigorous curriculum.” I’m not arguing, because I have no idea what’s true or not. But, I do see a lot of conflicting information on here”</p>

<p>The conflicting info is due to the fact that the universities use a wholistic approach so if a student is extremely well lopsided, s/he may be accepted despite not having the most rigorous curriculum across the board. </p>

<p>The universities don’t have a rubric.</p>

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<p>It seems to me that a lot of schools are pushing to no interviews at all to alumni interviews that are not critical to admissions. This was not the case when my older D was applying (2003) where it seems all the LACs interviewed students thru admission offices. This was hugely helpful to my D since her transcript was not among the “most rigorous” but her community involvement could never be so easily reduced to hours spent or bullet points on a resume. However, she did have a recommendation written for her by the superintendent of schools as to her leadership in protecting the money budgeted to the arts and a couple other district initiatives.</p>

<p>Frankly, I find it kind of weird on these chance me threads when people can name their community service hours down to the minute. Again, my daughter volunteered in many ways, but I it would have been nearly impossible to calculate exactly how many hours she spent coaching youth lacrosse because it basically just began as really liking the kids and “sticking around to help” as a freshman.</p>

<p>On the other hand, S came into a real affinity for science very late. There was no independent research, special programs in science or anything else. And even though he has no idea what he might do with a biochemistry degree (since being a doctor doesn’t seem to be on his list), it’s his feeling (and ours) that doing what he loves will keep him engaged and the doors will open. As we said last night, there are many careers today that weren’t even areas of study when we were in college, and science is one of those things where you just don’t know. As long as he doesn’t become a parody of a lab rat as portrayed on the show Better off Ted… I think he’ll do well. :)</p>

<p>Also… last year I was concerned slightly that son didn’t have many volunteer activities, except those done via his athletic teams. However, he played three sports, had played varsity in one since freshman year, was varsity across the board sophomore year and became captain of two senior year. He also took a course load that would have killed me in HS (let alone college). Summers were consumed with leagues, camps and elite teams and a real paying job since we were spending far too much on the rest. In any event, when I voiced my concerns to his counselor she said quite honestly, “when would he have had time?” While he was unceremoniously rejected ED from Dartmouth, he was accepted to a lot of great schools and is happy as a clam where he is now AND will probably be able to play his top sport - something he probably couldn’t have done had he gotten into Dart.</p>

<p>Now, had he had interviews with people who find athletics a waste of time and school budgets and resources… not sure how well that would have gone. But without sports, without that daily physical activity, my son could never have become the student he did. He really needed that physical release (and still does) so his brain has a chance to go with instinct instead of always always thinking.</p>

<p>Have no idea where this post is coming from but I think interviews should be viewed as an opportunity for the student to learn more about the school and should only be used as a positive. As has been said… some kids just arent that socially adept to pull off an interview… and this shouldn’t be used against them. For example, you have to be a special kind of person to want to spend your life in a research lab or working a math problemj and they probably aren’t going to be the most social among us. Seriously, some engineers I know can barely hold a conversation!! Yet, they are hugely successful when it comes to building rocket engines.</p>

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<p>The elite college admissions universe is certainly complex. I can’t speak for other high schools but at ours (10-20% NMF with about 10% going to Ivies or Stanford and another 10 to 15% percent to top 20 USNWR) the kids who get into HYPS have stratospheric gpas and test scores - and a very broad set of APs across the sciences, calculus, history and English subjects. Most simply work their tails off throughout high school - and are smart to begin with. ECs? I think I’ve seen it matter once when a wrestler who was NMF but not in top 10 percent of the class got into H early. Otherwise all the soccer, violin and community service in the world just doesn’t seem to matter. Being a really good writer seems to help a good deal though and I’m not talking about publishing a novel - just having a good ear and instinct for writing an application that is a pleasure to read.</p>

<p>What seems not to matter at all? The interview.</p>

<p>What seems to matter far less than believed? Race and Legacy.</p>

<p>What seems to matter more than generally thought? The teacher recommendations.</p>

<p>There’s so much searching for the zen of admissions, the alignment of stars that puts one into the zone for the acceptance letter. In the end, it’s a crap shoot among the very top scholars. jmo</p>