Caltech or Cornell?

Colleges and Universities A-Z California Institute of Technology
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<p>So, I was recently pulled off the Caltech waitlist and I have four or five days to make a decision. I haven't gotten my financial aid letter yet, and though I'm really, really excited to have gotten into Caltech, I'd also grown really attached to Cornell and wanted to look for your input.</p>

<p>Here are my inclinations and disinclinations so far.</p>

<p>Academics - Caltech has a better reputation in science and engineering, but how much better and where does it matter most? The programs and the alumni networks are undoubtedly smaller; where would this help or hurt?</p>

<p>Scope - What are the options, once you decide to go to Caltech? Specifically, I might be interested in pursuing business or law after I graduate, and don't want to burn down every bridge behind me. I know Caltech has an economics program; how is it and what do people who do that as a minor use it for after they graduate? </p>

<p>Location - I live in MA. CA is six hours' flight, Ithaca is six hours' drive (I'm not sure where the nearest airport to Ithaca is). I hear Pasadena is nice, but I also heard about smog in LA and the air pollution. I visited Ithaca, and the Cornell campus was really nice. How is the Caltech campus/city of Pasadena? </p>

<p>Social scene - So, the ratio of males to females at Caltech is rather disproportionate. The student body is small in general. I'm not sure what I'm looking for - general comments on this? I can't stand people who go way out of their way to be pretentiously nerdy. I mean, especially if someone uses an engineering pick-up line, and it works...I don't know, does that happen at Caltech? </p>

<p>Bodies of water
How near is Caltech to beaches? Do people usually go there? Are there vicious sharks waiting in the waters? Just curious.</p>

<p>Other Things</p>

<p>I don't know, I don't like making such a rushed judgment, and I can't just hop on over to Caltech and visit before I have to make a decision. So, uh, help? :)</p>

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<p>Academics - Cornell has over ten thousand undergraduates, Caltech has about a thousand. That generally means that when employers come hiring here, they assume pretty substantial sorting has already been done. I'd say the small size helps maintain a sense of top-quality all around and makes it easier to get your foot in the door with just the name.</p>

<p>The real differences in academic quality aren't that large. Caltech students are given somewhat more serious work and are treated with more respect by the faculty, so you will probably emerge better educated. But not by much.</p>

<p>Smaller programs help because it's easier to get research opportunities and get to know your professors quite well, if you want to. I can't think of any way in which they hurt. The professors in every discipline are absolutely top-flight. Bigger programs just have more grad students and more dead weight (to say it harshly).</p>

<p>Scope -- I know a kid last year who graduated and went to Harvard Law School, and the paths you propose aren't uncommon. Business schools and law schools are inundated with Ivy League applications from humanities majors, so having an "odd" background can be a significant help in getting you picked out of the pile. If you're sure you want to be a big deal lawyer, go to the best Ivy you can and make connections like crazy. But if you are thinking of business or law as possibilities but not your life's dream, then Caltech won't shut them off.</p>

<p>Location -- There is no smog that I can notice. There was when I got here three years ago and it's virtually disappeared for reasons that I do not understand. The air quality is superb. It's better than Northern California, from what people who grew up there tell me. Unless you have serious asthma, there is virtually no chance you will notice a difference.</p>

<p>The Caltech campus is probably among the top five most beautiful in the country. It has gorgeous fountains, palm trees, lawns, amazing and consistent architecture, and a gardening staff that seems to rival the faculty in size.</p>

<p>Social scene -- Caltech students aren't ostentatiously nerdy. They ostentatiously like to do offbeat stuff like build huge dancefloors for parties from scratch and light things on fire in the desert, but there are few people who just talk about work all the time. For the average Techer, if you weren't told they went to Tech, you couldn't tell from a casual conversation.</p>

<p>Bodies of water about a 45 minute drive. People who like the beach seem to go a fair amount. No sharks.</p>

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<p>Zoogies, I have the exact same decision to make. My major is prolly going to be either chem. or biochem., but I kinda want my job to be on the business side of science. I'm from CA, so I've been to Caltech twice and can tell you that it has a very good atmosphere and many many palm trees. Pasadena can hardly be considered LA; it's like its own little alcove. Not to worry: no smog. If you're from a big city in MA, it is indeed a huge environment change to Pasadena. When I first visited Cornell, it took my breath away because i had never seen such tall university buildings before. Cornell is certainly a lot more "open" than Caltech in terms of size.</p>

<p>The reason that I'm still having difficulty commited to one is that I feel like I'm denying myself something if I select one over the other. Like, if I chose Caltech, it seems like i won't be able to experience new things I could at Cornell. Vice versa, if I chose Cornell, I wouldn't be able focus on my major at the school that's best for it.</p>

<p>I hope this helps in making your decision. I should be doing that too... When is the final date to respond? (I was priority waitlisted if that matters.)</p>

<p>Btw: I heard that JPL is going to have an open house tomorrow. I haven't been there since I was like seven, so I'm so psyched to go! It's a place everyone should visit whether or not they're into science/math. (There's free stuff, too!)</p>

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<p>Academics: I'd slightly disagree with Ben and say that there are disadvantages to being a small school. There are fewer course offerings and sometimes courses are not taught every year. This is more true of the smaller departments, such as mine (CS). A department like Math offers all the classes you need, and they're offered regularly. However, I'd choose a small program over a large program over again without hesitation. You get so much more support, from professors, administrators, and peers, than you do in a larger institution.</p>

<p>Scope: Ben already said it -- it's definitely not unheard of for people to go for business or law after they graduate. Furthermore, this kind of background would give you an advantage if you're interested in science-related law (such as information rights) or business in the science sector. We do NOT offer minors at Caltech currently in almost all subjects. However, the majors in the humanities and social sciences (e.g. Economics and BEM (Business, Economics, and Management)) are designed to make it easier to double major with a science.</p>

<p>Location: There is almost no smog within Pasadena. I noticed it sometimes when I went into LA my first year, but now I really only know if it's a bad smog day based on how clear our view of the mountains is. Either way, Pasadena, and the Caltech campus in particular, is so green and beautiful that you don't have to worry about the smog. The only air problems I've ever noticed are that there's about a week in late September/early October where you're encouraged not to excercise outside because the fires in the mountains throw ash up into the air. This varies year to year depending on how close the fires are -- some years I can see the ash on my car, other years I don't notice that it's that time at all.</p>

<p>Social: There are all types here, from the types that actually use engineering pick-up lines (yes, I have heard one -- they usually don't work), to those that would not seem out of place at a fraternity kegger, to those who like to hang out at the coffeehouse or go off-campus during the weekends. Hopefully your house placement will go a long way towards placing you with people you'd feel most comfortable with.</p>

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<p>At pre-frosh weekend, I met a Caltech senior whose major was chemical engineering. He had been hired for a job in management although he had never been to business school. Why? Employers value the thinking skills in which Caltech students excel. So attending Caltech definitely does not preclude you from pursuing a career in business. I didn't meet anyone headed for law school, but am aware that most law schools accept students with almost any undergraduate major.</p>

<p>Although not rural like some schools, Caltech has many lovely, quiet nooks and is only three or four blocks from Huntington Gardens, which is over a hundred acres in size. Unlike another school whose chock-a-block buildings my son described as "postively hostile," he found Caltech's atmosphere relaxing.</p>

<p>I disagree with Ben (sorry, Ben) that you couldn't tell a Caltech student just by talking to them. We met not one whose intelligence didn't sparkle in their eyes. They all seemed interested in just about every topic that arose, no matter how remote from math or science. I had more fun talking with the students there - and the prefrosh parents - than I had at any other school. Strange as it may seem given Caltech's reputation as a geek school, I found students there more outgoing than those at any other campus. We didn't meet any "pretentiously nerdy" students, either. In fact, quite the contrary. The students had a genuine humility and modesty which, incidentally, is shared by the adminstration. In fact, it rather amused me that, when we asked about research projects, every student with whom we talked spoke about projects which most people would deem failures. They eagerly told us about experiments blowing up, critters dying, and all sorts of other mishaps. I'm sure many research projects have positive results. However, even during the official SURF session, students talked about projects that were not successes in the traditional sense. BTW, administration said they deem a project "successful" if the student learns something, even if the "something" is that the student isn't interested in pursuing that sort of research long term. </p>

<p>Cornell wasn't on my son's radar screen, but I've been to that campus many times because my dad consulted on research projects there when I was growing up. It is, indeed, a pretty campus. (And used to have very tasty food!) The two campuses are very different, though. Cornell is pretty in an eastern way, while Caltech is pretty in a western way. Cornell's campus is hillier; Caltech's is friendlier to pedestrians. Ithaca is closer to water (Cayuga Lake- no sharks) than is Pasadena, but the water near Ithaca is solid part of the year. Ithaca is also closer to New York's wine making region than Pasadena is to California's. You can fly directly into Ithaca, whereas Pasadena does not have its own airport although there are several airports within an hour's drive.</p>

<p>Bottom line? The two schools are similar in reputation and academics, but very different in character. Choose whichever fits you best.</p>

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<p>EllenF -- marvelously said.</p>

<p>And thanks for keeping me honest, alleya.</p>

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<p>First off, let me say that I would take Caltech over Cornell.</p>

<p>But I think it's healthy to be given a fair and complete assessment, so I will list some reasons why you shouldn't go to Caltech (despite the fact that I have said that I would pick Caltech over Cornell).</p>

<p>*Professional school admissions, especially law school admissions, are heavily heavily dependent on grades, and the truth is, you can probably get higher grades at Cornell. The rumors of tough grading at Cornell are no longer true - in fact, Cornell is nowadays just as grade inflated as the rest of the Ivies.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2005/05/grade_inflation_at_cornell/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2005/05/grade_inflation_at_cornell/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>This actually gets to something that Ben Golub and I have debated before, which is that there is the chance that you could come to Caltech and do poorly. It's certainly not a fun life at all to be doing badly at Caltech, because it may mean that you won't graduate at all, and you certainly won't be able to pull the grades necessary for law school. At Cornell, on the other hand, even if you're doing badly, you'll probably still graduate. You just have to find one of the easy majors and/or load up on easy classes in order to get enough academic credits to graduate. So you may not be able to major in what you really want (because that major may just be too hard for you), but you'll graduate. Generally the people who don't graduate from Ivies are the ones that don't WANT to graduate. As long as you put in some minimal effort at Cornell, you will graduate. The same cannot be said for Caltech. </p>

<p>*Caltech has required technical courses. This could be a problem in the sense that you may end up taking classes that you really don't want to take. This is especially so if you are interested in the humanities or in the social sciences - then, having to take classes in physics or other such technical fields can be a major drag because they will have nothing to do with what you want to do. </p>

<p>*I also agree that the social scene is highly quirky. For some people, this can be a major minus. </p>

<p>However, like I said, I would still pick Caltech over Cornell.</p>

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<p>well said, sakky.</p>

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<p>Perhaps I'm wrong, but engineering is still tough at Cornell. In addition, one is accepted at a particular school at Cornell. It is better to be accepted into engineering, and then take classes in another school, then to try to do the reverse. Shifting majors is a big deal, because it means transfering schools. Also, dorms seem to cater to kids in a college. I do know one girl entering Cornell engineering, but I suspect the M/F ratio is skewed.</p>

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<p>regarding the social scene and general happiness at caltech, there are some interesting (kind of old) results at <a href="http://survey.caltech.edu/KathyScott.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://survey.caltech.edu/KathyScott.pdf&lt;/a>. basically girls are happier but feel busier, and the "caltech makes you bitter" impression might not be entirely unfounded :)</p>

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<p>It's really too bad you can't visit the campus. My husband was a grad student at Caltech and I spent three years in Pasadena. We visited in April with my son who is a junior.</p>

<p>I personally think that Caltech has one of the prettiest campuses in the United States. The landscaping is incredible and I have a soft spot for Spanish Colonial revival architecture. We had a wonderful tour. No doubt Caltech students are smart, quirky and proud of it. We really enjoyed the attitude, but it might not be for everyone. My son loved the idea of having to work hard. He loved the idea of never seeing another multiple choice test. Pasadena has become a bustling small city and quite upscale since my day. Public transportation makes it much easier to get into the city than it used to be. We used to go to the beach fairly frequently, but be aware that while it may be 90 degrees in Pasadena, it may be in the 70s and foggy when you get to Santa Monica! And the Pacific is COLD! Not like the Atlantic at all. (At least the Atlantic from NJ south.) I had a friend who did a lot of scuba diving though. Academically we heard a lot about how wonderful the economics department was by the way. Science is clearly top notch. Caltech is tiny though - you have to decide if that will bother you.</p>

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<p>Scuba is one of the PE options at Caltech. I don't know if the participants scuba dive in the ocean, though.</p>

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<p>nope. millikan pond.</p>

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<p>LOL, or the turtle pond??</p>

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<p>SCUBA was a PE class until last year, when it got cut because of the budget :(.</p>

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<p>My son had the same situation to select between Caltech and Cornell during the past two weeks. He did select Cornell over Caltech. His main concern is that Caltech is too small, although an advantage, but at the same time, it's a disadvantage for undergraduates as not many course/activity choices available. We told him if he wants to go to graduate school in 4 years, he should consider Caltech again as it's a really great school.</p>

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<p>GirlCalais: yes! i went to the jpl open house this year, and i've been going every year for awhile. the amount of free stuff is decreasing, but it's still fun to go and look around.</p>