<p>accepted by both, which one is the choice?</p>
<p>CalTech!!!!</p>
<p>For what major?</p>
<p>Chem or similar.</p>
<p>Then Caltech - easier to get research jobs during the year and summers in prestigious labs. There are plenty of great chem researchers at Berkeley, but good luck getting into those labs.</p>
<p>The answer undoubtedly varies with the person. While Caltech is likely to be more prestigious in whatever you want to major in, you should definitely not go there if you think you might be happier at Berkeley. I'll cover some things you might want to consider:</p>
<p>Berkeley has over 26 times as many undergrads, 8 times as many graduate students, and over 3 times as many faculty, obviously lower in sciences and engineering, than Caltech. At Caltech, you'll recognize most of the undergraduates and know the name of most of the people in your freshman class. You'll also probably get a lot more personal contact with your professors. Administration is easy to deal with on a personal basis and there's next to no red tape. </p>
<p>Berkeley is obviously going to be a lot more prestigious and have more course offerings in things outside of math, science, engineering, and the more technical social sciences. That said, I've found that the breadth of courses at Caltech is fine for me. I've also had some amazing humanities teachers. Caltech is going to be more prestigious in technical fields for undergrad, if only because of the selectivity. The faculty at both are world-class.</p>
<p>It's almost certainly going to be easier to get research at Caltech. Most students do research through the SURF program. You can see announcements of opportunity here: Summer</a> Undergraduate Research Fellowships. These are specific projects that faculty (often at JPL) are looking for a student to do. A lot of students also contact faculty whose research they're interested in who have not posted announcements of opportunity and come up with their own projects that they get funded through SURF, so those listed certainly aren't the only (or most common!) options.</p>
<p>The student bodies are pretty different. 90% of Berkeley students are from California, while most Caltech students are from out-of-state. The gender ratios are pretty different, with Caltech having around ~ 2:1 males for every female. While Berkeley has more females than males overall, I doubt the gender ratio is much different when you just look within technical fields. In chemistry, the ratio is ~1:1 at Caltech. Everyone at Caltech is going to be majoring in physical sciences, engineering, mathematics, biology, economics, or business (fewer in the last two) while Berkeley is going to have people majoring in everything you can think of. While the average student at Caltech is going to be significantly better academically, particularly at math and science, the very top students at Berkeley will be of the same caliber.</p>
<p>The biggest academic difference between the two is in the course requirements. Caltech has the infamous Core which ensures that every person who graduates is competent in math, physics, chemistry, and other sciences. AP credit isn't worth anything (most of the Core classes are designed under the assumption that you've already taken AP Calculus BC, AP Chemistry, and AP Physics), so nearly everyone in your freshman class will be taking around the same schedule. This is nice since for most of your sets, you will not be able to do all of the questions on your own, so you are forced to collaborate extensively with your classmates. I think I've learned more from my classmates than I have from my classes. Most people here are insanely good at something, whether it's a specific type of academics or an awesome hobby. Berkeley has a lot fewer requirements outside of your major, they tend to not be too hard, and you'll probably get credit for a lot of them just with AP scores.</p>
<p>Pasadena and the city of Berkeley are extremely different. Most of the area to the south/east of Caltech is just covered with expensive houses. To the north/west there's shopping and food (lots of Asian food.) Pasadena is also, generally, pretty safe. Berkeley is Berkeley and the area around campus is going to be a lot more exciting in a way that might be good or bad for you. Campus itself is going to be a lot busier all of the time at Berkeley. Both campuses are equally gorgeous, I think. The squirrels at Berkeley are significantly more aggressive than the ones at Caltech. Caltech is significantly smaller and a lot easier to bike around (much flatter.) Most Caltech students will be living on campus, as in 30 seconds from the nearest academic building. If you're off-campus in Caltech-owned housing (most people do this for their sophomore year), you'll be a block or two away from campus. At Berkeley, the housing tends to be fairly far away from campus and it can take a while to get to a lecture.</p>
<p>I think you should make your decision most on the difference between student cultures. Caltech student culture is based around the House system, which is my favorite part of being a Caltech student. We have cool traditions like Ditch Day and pranks. Make sure you go to Prefrosh Weekend! Check out all of the Houses -- they're all different. Don't get turned off the whole school because you don't like one. Visit Berkeley and make sure you interact with as wide a variety of the students as possible.</p>
<p>Basically, if you don't mind the academic difficulty and like the student culture a lot, you should go to Caltech. If you're unsure about whether you want to go into science/engineering or prefer Berkeley's culture (which is going to be a lot looser and easier to fit in since there are so many students,) go there! I made this same decision a few years ago, which is why I've rambled on so much. :)</p>
<p>Thank you sooooo much for the information!</p>
<p>wow, exactly the same situation as OP. Thanks so much for the great info, but it makes me sad I can't go to Prefrosh Weekend...</p>
<p>Antiquark
Your post should be a permanent fixture. You convey so much info.Perhaps you and few other terrific posters could get a job with Admissions setting up a website?</p>
<p>Thanks, everyone. :)</p>
<p>If you can't make it to prefrosh weekend because of a time conflict, I highly recommend visiting some other time (during the weekday and not during midterms.) Don't spend more than a few hours looking through buildings and taking in the nice landscaping. There are regular tours that will mostly show you campus and will only be so useful for your decision. Sit in a few classes, but don't make it the point of your visit. Admissions can probably set you up with a student to have lunch at Chandler with and talk to you about Caltech. See if you can get a one-on-one tour to show you all of the Houses and introduce you to people. If Admissions can't arrange anything like that, you can always find people to talk to on your own. Keep in mind that students aren't used to having many strangers walking through the Houses, so you probably want to find someone who can introduce you to people in their House and maybe take you to their House dinner if you can stay that late (and you should!) Also, don't keep your parents in tow, whatever you do, for more than just looking around campus.</p>
<p>Preferably, you would follow a frosh around for most of the day, sit in a few core classes, eat lunch with them, chat with people, go to dinner, see how they do sets, etc. I don't mean just following them silently all day -- actually have fun! Try to meet as broad a range of people as possible. Either see if Admissions can set this up for you, contact someone you already know as a student here (maybe from your high school?), or just wander around the Olive Walk looking extra prefroshy and wait for someone to approach you.</p>
<p>Thanks Antiquark for all information and suggestions! We will go to Caltech for "Caltech in a day" on April 18.</p>
<p>For grad school they're probably equal but in undergrad I think Caltech smokes Berkeley. The rankings might tell you otherwise but I think Berkeley's undergrad sort of leeches off the reputation of the admittedly excellent grad programs. Case in point, I got accepted into EECS at Berkeley but didn't even bother applying to Caltech because I knew I had no chance an if I got in I'd be raped by core. A lot of my friends who applied to Berkeley got Regents invitations there but were rejected at Caltech. The average techer is probably smarter and more driven than the smarter than the average Berkeley student, not to mention the superior opportunities to do research in math and science at Tech.</p>
<p>Its big vs. small. Only you can make that decision. I would personally recomend caltech, but I'm a bit biased, as I went to
a small private school that reminds me of caltech, and doing vector
calculus makes me feel alive. My friend is at Berkeley, he says the chem dept. Is fabulous, but it can be tough to get the personal
attention that is key in landing opportunities. However all that said, if you
can't commit to a 'tech' school, and don't mind the size, Berkeley may be perfect for you.</p>
<p>I think antiquark's post excellently summarizes the choice at hand.</p>
<p>However, I would actually say that I would give a (slight) edge to Berkeley. Basically, the problem is that Caltech is just too specialized. The fact is, most new freshmen don't really know what they want to study, and hence that is the time when freedom to choose is paramount. What if you go to Caltech only to find out later - as many students do - that you don't really want to major in a technical subject? While Caltech does have some nontechnical majors, they certainly pale in comparison to what is available at Berkeley. More importantly, you're still stuck doing the Core, which is not really going to be a value-added exercise for somebody who doesn't want to be technical.</p>
<p>Look, even grad students often times end up switching fields, sometimes quite radically. I know one guy who came into a doctoral business program who first wanted to do hard-core game theoretic modeling of financial institutions. In just one year, he's switched his focus to the behavior and culture of venture capital and private equity partners. In other words, he has switched from being a hard-core quantitative economist and mathematician to becoming a qualitative mix of cultural anthropologist, ethnographer, and psychologist. And that's at the doctoral level. Hence, if even doctoral students can radically change focus, think about what might happen at the undergrad level.</p>
<p>I highly doubt a smarter than average Berkeley student is less capable than an average Caltech student. My sister spent a summer doing research in Caltech after her third year at Cal. She said she thought she'd be overwhelmed by Caltech intellectual, but she came back very disappointed. Said she could beat those students had they taken the same classes.<br>
Remember, Berkeley is very cut throat. The professors do not care or cater the exams or class materials to the weaker students in class. It's not like you learn a lite version of the same thing at Berkeley.</p>
<p>What do you mean by
[quote]
beat those students had they taken the same classes
[/quote]
if I may ask?</p>
<p>I mean, if the class is graded on a curve, she doesn't think she'd be lower than the mean if not does better.</p>
<p>Be sure to check out the Caltech Boat Tour, held by Dabney Hovse XP</p>
<p>cal tech HANDS DOWN...</p>
<p>Berkeley is no comparison to Caltech. It's like choosing between Michigan and Harvard with a smaller gap.</p>