<p>Question for anyone with knowledge/experience with the big 3 UK colleges. My daughter just finished her junior year at a top public high school in California. Shes pretty well finalized her application list of reaches/matches/safeties. Im just curious on UK schools which we know next to nothing about. Shes a very good student at a top public high school in California -- metrics: 4.45 GPA weighted (3.92 unweighted), 33 ACT 1st attempt (shes confident she can get a 34 on the 2nd try) + good EC's: editor school newspaper, sr. class president, president model UN team, highest-level honors piano, 4 years in a selective leadership class, 6 college units this summer at top east coast school, 4's on AP tests, low/mid 700s on SAT IIs). Knowing how competitive things are, likely there are several thousand kids who have similar/better numbers than her, she understands the top schools are a reach. Still she's going to apply to a few. We have a private college counselor (and a second adviser) that weve worked with since freshman year. Were confident they know their stuff on all US schools. They were instrumental in course selections, planning college tours, summer programs. They agree with her reach/match/safety list. However, whenever Ive inquired about my daughters chances of being accepted to Oxford, Cambridge, University of London - just the basic question it a possibility, is it worth even making an attempt? - its the only time I get a blank look and a vague response. General response, I just dont know those schools why not focus on them if grad school is of interest down the road. It's not a big deal, I'm just curious if shed have a shot in which case she'd probably apply (and Id consider dragging her to London on a future biz trip). While I cant say these schools are on the top of her list, she really enjoys UK/London and likes challenges/new adventures. Just curious if anyone can help gauge it? While I realize these schools are extraordinarily tough (to get accepted to) and most of their students come from top UK prep schools, is that radically different than my daughters top 5 US reach schools? Of note, of our high school's graduating class of ~ 350 (this year), 3 kids are going to college in the UK (at Cambridge, U of London, Imperial College). None of them were valedictorians. So I know it's not impossible although obviously every kid has a unique accomplishments/connections (and I'm sure they had many). I'd appreciate any insights......</p>
<p>Oxford: Reach
Cambridge: Reach
UCL: Safety-Match (depends on the major)</p>
<p>The “University of London” is actually a system of universities; your D may very well want to attend University College London (UCL), the flagship of the system. However I do not think a 33 is worth re-taking in order to attend Oxbridge or UCL.</p>
<p>I think that Catria is being optimistic. </p>
<p>There are huge differences between the US and UK systems, the two biggest being that: </p>
<p>1) In the UK you apply to one subject (or two, if a joint honours) and that is all you study. So, the first question is whether your daughter has a subject that she is set on studying- something that she can make a convincing case that she has enough of an interest and aptitude for, through outside of class work, reading, activities etc. The UK unis really really are not interested in well rounded students, so a lot of her resume won’t really be relevant. </p>
<p>2) The UK system does not recognize GPA at all- you don’t even put it on the application form. All that counts is standardized test scores, the university’s own aptitude test, personal statement (of interest in the subject), recommendations and the interview. The 33 ACT will be fine, the 700s on SATIIs will be fine- but only on subjects relevant to the subject she is applying to. But the 4s on the APs will be a deal breaker for Oxford and Cambridge. The typical requirement is a <em>minimum</em> of 3 5’s on <em>relevant</em> APs. So, for History and Politics, my DD applied with 5s on APs in World Hx and US Gov (plus 3 others that weren’t relevant). Her offer was conditional on getting 5’s on 3 out of the 4 APs she took Sr year: US Hx, Eur Hx, Comp Gov and Latin. There are US students who get unconditional offers, but they typically go to schools that allow students to take more AP courses, so they have enough by the end of Junior year. Your daughter has an impressive resume, but for the top UK unis she will need 5s on her APs (might she be anticipating some later this week?). Sorry to be so negative, but I hope it helps.</p>
<p>UCL is still easier to get into than Oxford or Cambridge. Oxbridge is a reach for anyone but how hard getting into UCL is depends on the major - which, like you said, is the only thing one will study for three years.</p>
<p>Since you guys seem to know about the British system, can you answer a quick question for me? How does the financial aid system work for these colleges and how expensive would they be for international students?</p>
<p>^There tends to be very little financial aid for internation students to the UK system (atleast from what i’ve seen, i definitely could be wrong). Also for international students studying at big schools like cambridge/oxford/imperial be prepared to spend a fortune, its signficantly more expensive than private US schools.</p>
<p>Oxford is about the same per year as a private US school- for 2012-2013 fees for tuition, room & board for a US student came to less than $40K (there is a little variability between colleges and courses). Not cheap, but not significantly more expensive than private US schools. And, many courses are 3 years, not 4, so the total can be less. </p>
<p>There are some bursaries that international students can compete for, but huge and nothing that you could count on. I have heard of people getting US student loans to study in the UK, but I don’t know anybody who has done it.</p>
<p>For international students, Oxbridge charges different tuition for different courses (majors), e.g. ~£14K for humanities, ~£20K for sciences. In addition, there is a college fee, ~£6500. With ~£10K room and board, you are really looking at at least £30-36K/year before transportation.</p>
<p>*NOT huge</p>
<p>(oops)</p>
<p>Granted only some programs are 3 years, the only one I’m familiar with is the engineering school at Imperial but all engineering programs there are 4 years and its an estimated 60k a year.</p>
<p>That is very helpful (albeit slightly depressing). </p>
<p>In fact, I thought I’d seen a reference somewhere that 5’s on AP tests were obligatory for Oxford and Cambridge. Realistically, based on this intel, my D wouldn’t seem to be a candidate for Oxbridge. Pitty. The reality is her focus has been so heavy on grades (every top college in the US makes it abundantly clear GPA/challenging course load are #1), then ACT/SAT’s and then EC’s. My D’s personal passion are the EC’s (if it helps her get into a top college, she thinks that’s a nice by-product). She actually spent more time (junior year) on her school newspaper (some weeks, 25+ hours) and her elective leadership class than all of her AP’s combined. She dedicated very little time to preparing for her AP tests – not that she was laying on the beach - other than what the teachers covered in class pre-test. However, she’s taking 5 AP’s her senior year, maybe the Oxbridge schools would recognize performance on those senior year tests (conditionally) – but that sounds highly unlikely. </p>
<p>The bigger strike against her – from what collegemom has written – is her lack of finding that single subject or field of study. She has always excelled at math and science, but she loves IR, Govt. and is trying a Pre-Med (& IR) summer programme. Will she return with a single direction? Possibly, but I highly doubt it. Probably her biggest strength is her well-roundedness, which might have some advantages in the states but a deal killer at Oxbridge (maybe less so with UCL or Imperial College?).</p>
<p>In retrospect, my daughter considered a summer at Oxbridge. Perhaps, if she had, she might have put more emphasis on getting 5’s on the AP exams. Then again, I really don’t think she would’ve been comfortable isolating that single field of study as a 14 or 15 year-old. I guess if a child is raised in the UK, and had a strong desire to attend Oxbridge, it would strongly motivate them to find that single field of study. </p>
<p>Anyway, I really appreciate the insights/information!</p>
<p>@Marinboy, that focus is why our next one down is staying in the US: like your D she likes both sciences and humanities. So, she will be at a US college in Sept. The one at Oxford has been a history/politics person since she was in primary school, and is thrilled to be with other people who share that passion. For her, having to fulfill GenEd or distribution requirements would be a trial. On the other hand, her sister is excited about the smorgasbord of interesting classes she can take this autumn. To each their own! </p>
<p>Given the work that you all have put into the college process, and the work she has done in HS, your D will undoubtedly have many great choices. What more could you wish for your fledgling girl?!</p>
<p>Collegemom - all excellent points, we’re very proud of the work our D has put into these past 3 years. Like all parents we’re excited, and a twinge nervous to see how things will play out over the next 6-9 months. We expect our D will have some great choices (understanding the reaches are reaches, and there will be some nos). As for the Oxbridge schools, if it had been her primary desire we would’ve planned a bit differently. It wasn’t and we didn’t. Frankly the whole process is so overwhelming - so many options and as my D says “they all look great”. However, in our isolated example, amazing contrast with uber volume of knowledge from the various counselors re: the US schools what appears to be a “needle in haystack” for UK schools. My D did say the outgoing seniors from her class who are attending Cambridge and Imperial College (and UCL) have a British parent in the mix. Presumably they knew the ropes (and perhaps had a contact or two).</p>
<p>You may want to take a look at some of the universities in Scotland as well.</p>
<p>My son goes to University of St Andrews.</p>
<p>In general, it is my understanding that UK universities go mainly by standardized test scores, and places less emphasis on extracurricular activities.</p>
<p>Oxford and Cambridge are almost impossible to get into. Also, it is my understanding that you can only apply to one or the other, not both.</p>
<p>Take a look on the internet at what they call the “league tables”, which should give you a good idea of the top universities in the UK.</p>
<p>Correct, you can only apply to either Oxford or Cambridge. But the Admission process is very open and they welcome candidates who did not attend one of the traditional and famous public schools.
You do not need any contacts, all the information is online or available in books. Oxbridge is looking for people who are passionate about their one and only subject, have read about it and are clever, unconventional thinkers. Applications do not cost a lot and you can do your interview via Skype.
Applicants are expected to have high test scores, but these will only get you as far as the interview. This is the crucial point and it is not done by alumni, but by the very professors who will be teaching the student. In the Oxbridge tutorial system one professors meets with one or two students only, so this part of the teaching is very intensive.
If you are applying to one of the UK universities anyway you might as well include Oxbridge as one of your five choices in the UCAS application.</p>
<p>Despite being part of the bests schools in the world Oxford and Cambridge actually have a high undergraduate acceptance rate, it is altough mostly based on your career path. Their rates for each concentration of study are actually posted in their website (idk about Cambridge, but Oxford does). They clearly state that they don’t care about EC’s they just want to know your academics, what really matters to them alot are SAT and AP/IB scores, so that should be in my opinion what you should focus the most if you want to apply to those UK schools, unlike US schools they are mostly focus on purely academic and scholarly things.</p>
<p>Yes you can not apply to both Cambridge and Oxford, it has to be either/or. The acceptance rates I repeat are actually pretty high but depend on the concentration of study, for Oxford they range from 8.1%(Math Major) to 38.5% (Classics).</p>
<p>Hi MarinBoy. If your daughter doesn’t have one area that she wants to study, do not send her to Oxbridge. Don’t even have her apply really–they make you choose one area, and just one, and then stick with it for the whole degree (switching is very rare and not easy). This could be stressful/limiting if she doesn’t know what she wants to do. As for other UK unis, they tend to be as focused on choosing just one course. If she’s determined to go to England but doesn’t have AT LEAST 3 5’s on AP tests, LSE and Durham are slightly easier to get into (the 2nd tier in the UK). If she wants science/engineering, Imperial has very strong programs (almost up there with Cambridge, better than Oxford).
In terms of cost, I go to Cambridge and my fees are ~27,000 pounds/year (arts subject). There are scholarships available (at least for Cam) through the Cambridge Overseas Trust.</p>
<p>@JoseAlanEsparza - Oxford and Cambridge do not have high acceptance rates for undergrads. Most people who make this claim simply don’t understand the process, and will cite the general “1 in 5 applications” (20%) undergraduate admissions rate (average), which seem to be VERY high for a top tier institution like Oxbridge. Even though you’ve cited a range from 1% to 38% this is a highly misleading set of statistics. </p>
<p>First of all, the vast majority of undergrads are from the UK where they use the nationwide UCAS application which allows graduating High School students to choose 5 (and only 5) universities nationwide to apply to. Only applicants with THE VERY BEST chances at Oxford or Cambridge bother wasting 1 of their 5 UCAS application slots on Oxford or Cambridge because the chances of getting in are still low and they’d have to feel VERY confident that their 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th choices (LSE, Imperial, etc.) will take them. </p>
<p>So out of those students who do have THE VERY BEST chance, you have to cut that group in HALF due to the fact that they cannot apply to both schools. Finally, once you get to an actual interview, 80% (on average) of those VERY BEST students are rejected (equaling the misleading 20% statistic).</p>
<p>So: Take the very best students in the country, carve out only those willing to risk a UCAS slot on a likely reject, chop that group in half, and then reject 80% (on average) of the remaining. If you survive that, Oxford or Cambridge is your future. </p>
<p>So: If there were a hypothetical 100 student sample, and 10 were willing to risk a UCAS slot, and 5 apply to Oxford and 5 apply to Cambridge, then the 5 students do an interview and (using your 38% acceptance figure, which is 62% rejection rate) then only 1.9 students make it into Oxford or Cambridge.</p>
<p>I hope you can see now that saying they have a high acceptance rate is misleading.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that, for Oxford, the interview is a huge part of the application process. So compared to other UK universities, Oxford is slightly more holistic in admissions (though nothing compared to US colleges). The interview is meant to gauge the applicant’s skill and passion for his/her subject. So, as long as you have filled the requirements for Oxford (as stated on the website), I would say that it’s worthwhile applying even if you may not have absolutely amazing stats.</p>
<p>Of course, the percentage of initial applicants who get interviewed varies from subject to subject. Generally around 2/3 to 3/4 of the interviewed applicants get turned down, so you can imagine what a huge role it plays. Relatively speaking, getting to the interview is the easy bit.</p>
<p>There also are admissions tests for certain subjects where many get applicants get cut.</p>