Campus Visit Tour: Final Stop UPenn

<p>Amazingly, we made it through our 8 colleges in 8 days (I didn’t review 2 of them since we either just interviewed or walked/drove through) finishing up today at University of Pennsylvania. I note that no one caught my little joke in the Wesleyan review (our Penn-ultimate stop?). Oh well. Comedy has never been my strong suit. I don’t feel much like laughing since our flight home has been cancelled (apparently a shot over the bow by the Northwest Airlines machinists who plan to go on strike on August 20th and want to jerk management around a bit) and the only flight they can get us on won’t get us home until almost midnight. At least Philadelphia Airport has wi-fi, so I can feel somewhat productive and get this report posted about Penn.</p>

<p>As we approached the hotel on the edge of campus in a taxi, my first impression was “This place is too big.” I had even more doubts when over a hundred of us filed into a huge auditorium for the info session which was conducted by a regional admissions director using a handheld microphone. I must admit that I was absolutely wrong. Although Penn is big by the numbers (10,000 undergrads, 9000 grad and professional students), my overall sense after our visit is not of uncontrolled hugeness, but of lively, intellectual potential in a more moderate but not impersonal setting. Although West Philly, where the campus is located, is decidedly urban, Penn is not. Much like Columbia, the campus is entered through gates that are open to the public and accommodates only foot traffic, no cars. Unlike Columbia which is fairly small with little green space, Penn is spacious (4 avenues wide and 10 blocks long) with wide paved tree-lined walkways, and tall, tall beautiful buildings which are mostly newly renovated and very high tech. Although today was miserably hot and humid, most times the tour guide found shady cool areas to stop and talk. One plus of Penn is that all of the grad schools and professional schools, including the hospitals, are adjacent to main campus making undergraduate research and “sub-matriculation”, the practice of enrolling in grad school during the 4th year of undergrad and graduating in 5 years with both bachelor’s and master’s degrees, quite accessible.</p>

<p>Unlike the other colleges and universities we’ve visited, Penn requires application to one of four specific “schools”, the Nursing School which admits 70 to 100 freshmen, the Wharton School of undergraduate business which admits 450 to 500 freshman and confers a bachelor of economics degree to all, the School of Engineering which admits 400 freshmen who receive either the bachelor of science in engineering if they plan to go directly into engineering or, more commonly, a bachelor of applied science if they do not, and the College of Arts and Sciences which admits the remaining 1400 freshmen. When pointedly asked how difficult it is to transfer from one school to another if a student desires to do so, the adcom replied “Well, it’s not easy and it’s not hard.” A student is required to spend an entire year in one school before applying to transfer, and an opening must exist to accommodate the transfer. My translation was that it is easy to transfer to CAS, but not to Wharton, the school of engineering, or the nursing school. Dual degree programs which confer degrees from 2 of the 3 schools simultaneously also exist (e.g., a health management degree which grants degrees from the school of Nursing and Wharton) and a box is checked off on the application if the student wishes to consider one of these programs. Approximately 40% students double major, most in related fields. It is more difficult to major in distinctly unrelated fields since the general/distribution/curriculum requirements number approximately 10 classes and a double major requires up to 18 additional classes in each major. They noted that some students take a 5th year to complete the double major, though one tour guide graduated in June with a double major in poli sci and theater arts. </p>

<p>The adcom reported that Penn is in the “top 10% of colleges who send students abroad”, but didn’t report exactly what percentage of students do study abroad. Most students spend a semester, some 2 semesters, and some go abroad during the summer. There over 100 Penn-sponsored study abroad programs in >40 different countries. Penn also has a Center for Undergraduate Research and Fellowships (CURF) to assist students in finding opportunities in these areas. The average class size is 28 students, with 75% classes under 25 students. The remaining 25% classes (introductory level, i.e., most of the freshmen classes) can be as large as 200 students and are usually taught in the professor lectures: grad asst’s do the recitation format. Non-professors also teach the freshman writing class and the beginning foreign language classes. The adcom stated “Safety is no more and no less a concern at Penn than it is at other urban colleges” and that the major crime is theft. Students uniformly stated that they felt safe but knew they could use the blue light system and campus escort system if they didn’t.</p>

<p>On-campus housing accommodates approximately 60% of the student body and housing is not guaranteed. 99% freshmen live on-campus, the other 1% commute. Options for housing include the 11 traditional college houses with a dean and a master (like the other Ivy League schools), high-rise apartment-type buildings, and other arrangements. After the freshman year, some students choose to live off-campus, most in the 10 blocks surrounding campus. The adcom could not answer the question “How many students are denied housing?” stating that, although some students might not like the housing available, there is usually enough housing to accommodate all students who want to live on-campus in some capacity. She noted that most freshmen get one of their top 3 choices and Penn makes no attempt to try to match students, but assigns them as the applications come in. Meal plans are flexible including meal and point options.</p>

<p>From the admissions standpoint, she candidly acknowledged that ED gives a significant admissions boost. Approx 30% of early applicants were accepted this year, and 46% of the freshman class ultimately came from the early decision pool. Interviews play a small role in the process, since they can only interview about 50% of the overall applicant group. Only children and grandchildren of alumni may interview on campus.</p>

<p>That’s it for now. If there are any questions, fire away. This will be my last review. I would greatly appreciate even a few sentences from anyone who has visited Northwestern, Oberlin, or other liberal arts schools that could accommodate a kid who wants to do a science and vocal performance.</p>

<p>Quiltguru</p>

<p>Too late now, but did you consider BU? It has a strong voice and opera program.</p>

<p>So far, Penn is my D's first choice. I think that the Locust Walk scene is what appealed to her. She also likes the campus/city dynamics. We have several close relatives and friends nearby which provides some comfort to her parents.</p>

<p>We are planning a return trip in the fall to see if she wants to ED. I've heard that many students either move off campus or go Greek after freshman year. Off campus housing is readily available in the few blocks surrounding the campus, so it's not really a detriment.</p>

<p>Quiltguru - I have to admit these college sketches of yours have been a pleasure to read; unbiased, with telling details and answers to practical questions. Have you ever written for a living?</p>

<p>Thanks again. Our experience in March was similar- terrible weather (we had a cold rain most of the day) but very favorable impression of the campus, students and buildings. I'm a Philadelphia native and I couldn't get over how the campus had improved since I took some classes there in the early 70s. It is very high on S's list, depending on how things go with the coach.</p>

<p>Here's a link to an article on the music performance program at UPenn from the current alumni magazine:
<a href="http://www.upenn.edu/gazette/0705/feature01.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.upenn.edu/gazette/0705/feature01.html&lt;/a> </p>

<p>Penn also has a wonderful Music in the College Houses program for instrumental and vocal lessons.</p>

<p>Finally, Penn is constructing a small bistro type student performing arts house with seating for like 100 persons at a cost of over $1million that will be ready September 2006.</p>

<p>thanks, Saint. I read this article before we toured...it quotes the child of one of my colleagues who loved Penn and was confirmed in our discussions with the music folks at Penn. Marite, we looked at BU briefly, but it is too big (17,000) for my D who is reluctant to look at our home U which she knows very well from studying voice there...for the same reason. And thanks, johnwesley for your kind comments; my professional writing is restricted to scientific articles and book chapters...maybe there's a second career when I retire!</p>

<p>solid science + vocal performance?</p>

<p>if you dont mind texas, yall should check out Rice University in Houston</p>

<p>I can tell you some "uneven" things about Northwestern...I grew up in Northwestern's neighborhood--went to high school 4 blocks from Northwestern; my son applied (and was accepted) there for the class of 2009 (he's not going there, tho). We did not do a college visit (long story, not relevant here). </p>

<p>I can tell you in the Midwest Northwestern has a superlative rep; better than many of the east coast "heavy-weights"...but outside the Midwest the rep isn't as strong. Northwestern has a particularly strong school of communications, and I've heard really good things about its performing arts program, but have no personal experience with it. It's strong in science/engineering, and liberal arts, too--my S was accepted into an "elite-within-the elite" ISP (integrated science program) that looked seriously cool; kind of like Northwestern's version of an honors program in the sciences and math...of course; it's one of the top 25 selectives; it just about has to be good in most areas...</p>

<p>The campus is wonderful...it's a couple of miles long, north to south--and maybe a mile east-to-west; it hugs the shores of Lake Michigan--lots of beach access! It's also adjacent to "downtown" Evanston...it's about 8 miles (give or take) from downtown Chicago -- 2 miles to the Chicago/Evanston "border" (which consists of crossing a street--Howard St)--it's a straight shot south to downtown); excellent public transportation to just about any part of the city and surrounding suburbs..it's in a safe (for a big city) neighborhood; heavily treed and pretty in a urban sort of way. It's got a "gothic-looking" building or two, but mostly it's not your typical east coast gothic architecture...it's extremely urban-feeling. Evanston is a suburb of Chicago, but it "feels" like Chicago...</p>

<p>IN many respects, it IS Chicago--all the cold winters, beautiful springs/autumns, hot humid summers...there are the Cubs, the White Sox, the Bears...Second City, Old Town, Lincoln Park...the Bulls and the Black Hawks, the theatres downtown; the Art Institute, the Magnificant Mile; neighborhood theatre and professional theatre, concert halls, museums, Hyde Park, Grant Park; the lake front; incredible ethnic neighborhoods and restaurants...I've not lived in Chicago since 1978, when I moved to DC to go to law school, but I still consider it home. I thought I'd died and gone to heaven when S told me he was applying to Northwestern; I shouted w/delight when his acceptance letter arrived; I cried for a week when he ruled it out...</p>

<p>S is going to Cornell, an excellent school in a beautiful spot. I love Penn and many of the other east cost "heavy-weights" you described (beautifully and "information-laden-ly"--you really did a service for families interested in those schools!)...but nothing but nothing beats Chicago/Northwestern...</p>

<p>We visited Oberlin a few years ago with D and she has several friends there in the music school. D auditioned/applied and was accepted, but she felt that the school was in the middle of a cornfield. It is. I liked the campus. It has a mix of styles, and the music facilities are outstanding. We liked the strong academics combined with the conservatory.</p>

<p>Don't know if you've considered it or not, but, Hampshire College has an unusually good science program considering it's reputation for "do-it-yourself" majors and other 1960s innovations. It actually receives more NSF funding than nearby Amherst (the college--not UMass which is sometimes referred to by the same name.) I believe cognitive science is one of their specialities. Anyway, they have a very prominent building complex devoted to it. </p>

<p>The Hampshire campus is on the other end of town from Amherst and shares the same rural/small town feel. Unfortunately, the architecture has every appearance of having been designed and built all at once by the same hand; we had trouble distinguishing the library from the cafeteria when we visited a few weeks ago. The squarish, red-brick buildings literally all looked alike.</p>

<p>The food was good. There were a wide variety of cereals and fruits and a salad bar for the health conscious; the meat and carb dishes were well prepared and tasty.</p>

<p>One odd thing was the ever present smell of compost in certain parts of the campus as gardening is a popular college activity.</p>

<p>The dorms are a mixed bag. We saw only singles when we visited, but some rooms could easily be converted to doubles. Given the choice, I would choose the red-brick dorms that are more central to campus over the more distant ones located "past the arts center"; the latter appear to be contructed from tin and baseboard. They consist entirely of suites, but are considerably more run-down looking than their red-brick cousins. [Note to future campus planners: wallboard does not
wear as well as cinderblock.]</p>

<p>I'm not sure about their music program. I'm thinking it might make a nice safety if you like that part of New England. :)</p>

<p>Quiltguru - Did you feel that the campus culture at Penn has a place for those who do not choose to go Greek?</p>

<p>We visited Northwestern last summer. D is Renaissance woman, and is interested in many things, so she would like to take science, art, etc. along with her major in IR. You apply to colleges there, and when queried about whether or not one can double major in different colleges, we were told (after a bit of hemming and hawing) it's possible, but very difficult. And even taking classes in a different college is difficult. The problem is scheduling and traveling between the schools. Also difficult to transfer from one to the other. After we heard this, we didn't even go on the tour. It just wasn't what D wanted or needed. Nice location near the lake, but...</p>

<p>Overanxious, I know what you mean. I wish S had applied to Northwestern. Both H and I are alums. He refused. One of his classmates, also with two alum parents, was accepted ED. Ah well. The winters in Boston are not much different than Chicago.</p>

<p>Twinmom: Penn definitely has a campus culture for those that don't go greek. About a third of penn's UGs go greek. So that leaves over 6,000 students that aren't in the greek system. You definitely find a niche and meet some amazing people. Personally, I am not involved in the greek system but I have many friends and we have great social lives. Penn definitely has a very diverse student body - you'll always find someone who you share interests with. Also on a related note, the greek system at penn, unlike at most other universities, is not exclusive. At most universities only the people in the frats plus their external friends and every good looking woman is let in to the parties. So if you don't go greek at most universities your party life will not be very extensive. At penn, they let you into the vast majority (+90%) of parties even if you don't know anyone in the frat. So you can still go to the parties and have fun. The 10% that are exclusive are the very wealthy 2-3 frats and a few exclusive secret societies unaffiliated with the greek system.</p>

<p>audiophile: You are right most who want on campus housing get it as many go into the greek system or move off campus.</p>

<p>quiltguru: I thought your review was excellent. Just a minor correction...double majors can be done in 4 years without question (you can double major within your school). JointDegree programs (huntsman BSE/BA, m&t BSE/BS, etc.) are also done in 4 years. If you want you can do a dual-degree in whatever you want and this might take an extra semester depending on your AP credits, etc. And you're right penn is a large school with a smaller school feel.</p>

<p>D ,admittedly a few years ago, found the music performance facilities at Northwestern inadequate compared to other music schools of a similar level.Could be different for voice. Liked the school as a whole though was turned off by the cold during audition time.Oberlin was her first choice due to instrument studio teacher but was turned down (applied double major and was wait listed for regular admissions though)Conservatory facilities were good but a bit overcrowded,and no plans for expansion.We heard science was top notch and thats where all the building $$ was going 4 years ago.D couldnt believe how small the town was,echoing again the comment of "middle of a cornfield".Logistics of travel for an out of stater w/o a car could be a major hassle (ie no public transport, one shuttle like cab co to the airport,etc)Secretly I think D was relieved not to be accepted so didnt have to make the teacher/location choice.
I think this hads been discussed previously but please be aware (forewarned) that a student who is NOT a Music Performance major (vocal or instrument) will definitely be on the bottom of the pile in a conservatory setting as far as lesson availability,etc.I don't care what assurances they give you during admissions talks..its the truth.There are only so many resources, studio hours etc to go around and the BMus get priority.</p>

<p>QG, what impressions did you have about music performance study at Penn? The magazine article gives the impresion that it has recently moved from non-existant to flegling status. Did you feel that there could be suitable options to help a musician prepare for the next level, and would a musician find a cohort of kindred spirits?</p>

<p>Hey Twinmom- I just wanted to agree with Bern. Two of my roommates are greek (same sorority, but we knew each other prior to their pledging), and my other roommate and myself are not, so the greeklife on campus certainly does not create an iron wall between itself and the rest of the community. I'd say some of the performance arts groups are more exclusive, since they spend pretty much all their time together. Between people you meet on your hall, in groups you join, and randomly on the street, you can gather a large network of friends without setting foot inside a frat.</p>

<p>quiltguru, kudos on a great review. I'd say you pretty much captured the spirit of Penn. However, I'd like to make a correction, that the majority of people in Engineering (SEAS) are BSE bound, not BAS bound.</p>

<p>Thanks for the correction, Bern. I checked my notes from the info session and they were as I first stated...either I wrote it down wrong or the adcom stated it incorrectly.</p>

<p>gadad, from discussions with the folks at Penn and a recent string performance major, a performance major with prep for a conservatory grad school is possible, but, as at many schools, requires focus and perseverance. The string performance major chose to take private lessons at Curtis, so this is possible. From a vocal performance standpoint, there are at least 3 teachers with good credentials and one jazz voice teacher.</p>

<p>Bern700 & Muppetcoat - Thank you for the information on Greek life. I'm also wondering how "liberal" an atmosphere as a whole is at Penn - would you put it on par with say, Brown? Also, any idea how much of an impact SATs have on admission, or do they look at the prospects more wholistically?
Quiltguru - Cornell (not on your list) also requires application to a specific school.</p>