Can a Middle Class Person go to an Ivy League School?

<p>At Brown my pell grants just get subtracted from my finaid award.</p>

<p>From our experience, the fafsa determined EFC was unrealistically high and the CSS made it even worse. Rich people and poor people are not expected to undergo a total upheaval in lifestyle, but middle class folks are? I don't think the "middle" is a good place to be in terms of college affordability. Also, I don't think that it helps a lot to be a top scholar if you don't have some desirable hook or demographic.</p>

<p>of course...i mean they could just get nice grants or loans, (even though loans suck). I technically am middle class, but luckily for me, my grandparents are well...lets just say they are in a league of there own and they are going to pay for all 5 of my siblings college and mine.</p>

<p>Quote: "From our experience, the fafsa determined EFC was unrealistically high and the CSS made it even worse. Rich people and poor people are not expected to undergo a total upheaval in lifestyle, but middle class folks are? I don't think the "middle" is a good place to be in terms of college affordability. Also, I don't think that it helps a lot to be a top scholar if you don't have some desirable hook or demographic"</p>

<p>Totally agree. </p>

<p>It also doesn't make sense (and I could argue that it is even irresponsible) to drain a meager retirement income to foot the bill for a kid's education when they could have had a decent/well regarded education elsewhere.</p>

<p>I know that it is disappointing, but look at your other options (other schools) - you might find that some of them are really good fits and have a lot to offer your child. One of those things that they may offer is a free education. What a great gift to be able to give to your kid (and yourself)- a debt free status after college!</p>

<p>"....and poor people are not expected to undergo a total upheaval in lifestyle"</p>

<p>Poor people have a lifestyle?</p>

<p>I wholeheartedly agree that there is an overemphasis placed on getting an Ivy education on these forums - to the point where students reading the posts will start to believe that they have to bankrupt themselves in order to make anything decent of their lives.</p>

<p>Our family simply can't afford even the EFC (from looking at the way FAFSA is computed, I think they're just plugging in so-called COLA's into an antiquated initial model), but at the colleges my daughter applied to, financial aid offices use work-study and subsidized loans as part of their "aid". Which means that our expected contribution of $17,000 suddenly becomes $25,000. Times 4 years times 3 children. With take-home pay of $4000 a month, why in the world would we want to try to finance $300,000 of debt to be able to brag about an Ivy League education?</p>

<p>If you're wealthy or have saved funds for an Ivy League school and your kid can get in, go for it if it's important to you. We've tried to instill in our kids that a person is more than the "name" school they attended, and that their education is what they make of it. If you're going way into debt because you think that the networking you do at your Ivy school is the only way to succeed, then good luck in paying off those debts. My kid will be working right alongside you in that job you get or that grad school you get into, but won't be saddled with 100 grand in loan debt for undergrad.</p>

<p>Many good public schools have Honors Colleges that support small classes, have innovative programs and provide amazing opportunities. Many of the students who can get into Ivy League schools also qualify for National Merit, which in my opinion is the single great program for middle class students. I attended a private college (back in the day) on a National Merit, and I've had 2 kids so far who have gotten almost a free ride on National Merit at out-of-state public schools (and we're hoping for the hat trick on the third in two years). A strategy I haven't seen mentioned in paying for college is to practice drill (hard!) for the PSAT. It's worked for us.</p>

<p>And yes, D could have gone to an Ivy League school (2360 SAT, all 5's on AP's, 800's on SAT II's etc.), so this isn't sour grapes on not being admitted (she turned down Duke). It's just practicality - save the debt for grad school.</p>

<p>Same with Schools like wesleyan who claim to meet needs
They gave us 808 dollars per semester
Is this a joke?
Their price tag is 50,000
beware of lables like "Meet need" and do not waist your application money and kids hope.</p>

<p>All and every private school cost about the same at about $50,000 a year, that include room and board. If you felt that's too much stress to the family finance, plenty good public schools are out there too, Berkeley, Austin Texas, Florida and many many more.</p>

<p>Don't matter if you drive a Lexus or Toyota, they all get you to your destiny.</p>

<p>Private colleges do not owe anyone an education. Endowments allow them to provide scholarships to a lucky few. Perhaps the problem is that they are advertising need-based aid and not really providing it. It's always worth applying because you might get enough, but there are no guarantees. Everyone has to make a decision on how best to spend his money, even those who can afford full-fare.</p>

<p>Would it possible to us to come up with a list of colleges that have good/excellent financial aid?</p>

<p>Top ones in mind include:
Princeton
Harvard
Yale? (I know a couple of people who got full rides)
Stanford
MIT
Caltech
UPENN
Columbia</p>

<p>....</p>

<p>Even schools that are supposedly needs blind admission are not really needs blind. And most schools dont apportion financial aid equitably, meaning the same to everyone. They use financial aid as a recruiting tool. I know people who got admissions letters are prestigious schools only to be sorely disappointed with modest financial aid. Others schools who gave generous financial aid.</p>

<p>My D got very different offers from very different schools. Our EFC didnt change, just the schools and what they "wanted" to give.</p>

<p>And I know families that got HUGE scholarships that dont need the money and their kids stats are really not any better than some other kids. In fact at Duke I know of one kid who got admitted (and turned down some Ivy admissions) and he got less than another kid who got a full ride to Duke...the AB Duke Scholarship and their family doesnt need a dime of what they gave them.</p>

<p>Financial aid and scholarships are about as equitable and predictable as the admissions process and that is not saying much.</p>

<p>But it is what it is, and they do it because they can and you can either take it or leave it. And calling them and complaining may or may not help your cause....if they are inclined to help you and want your kid they will....otherwise they wont help you and you are left with a decision, love em or leave em.</p>

<p>its easy for middle class people to go to ivy schools. its called ROTC. full tuition covered. military service is frowned upon but there is a way...there are alternatives</p>

<p>friedokra (love your screenname),
Although I agree with much of what you say, I do wan't to clarify one point for those new to the admissions and FA process: the term "need blind" refers to the application process (financial need is not considered in the school's decison to accept or deny), not their FA process. Many "need blind" schools ALSO provide "100% of demonstrated need", which is the part that applies to FA. The caveat to 100% need that many people overlook is that that need is usually a mixture of workstudy, loans and grants. Only a few very selective schools offer only grants in their FA packages.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Poor people have a lifestyle?

[/quote]

Everybody has some lifestyle, and we all get accustomed to whatever that is. My point was that wealthy people can probably afford college without any major changes in their everyday lives. Families who are poor enough can gain full COA from ivies as well as complete or nearly complete cost coverage from private schools, so their daily lives don't change too much. What about the guys in the middle? Our EFC was 1/3 of our gross income. Okay, we pay taxes and the giant EFC and then we are expected to live on less than the amount that was deemed "poor enough" to get full financial aid from the ivies. Oh sure, we can all move out of our modest homes and use our meager retirement savings. But those things constitute a pretty big lifestyle change to me.</p>

<p>So, because lower income people are "used to" that lifestyle, it's easier on them? I'm not sure you're gonna get any college to go along with that reasoning.</p>

<p>Do Ivies ever give more FA to athletes even though they don't give "athletic" scholarships? Seems to me they could determine more or less need at their discretion?</p>

<p>Seems like we all have slightly different view on this. I agree with a poster who wrote that if they really want you they will find a way . But this is just my gut feeling.
We are "light years" away from aplication process but I already know that I don't want my kids to have student loans by the end of undergrad schools. I also don't want them to work just for the sake of making money - if they choose to work while at college I hope it will be something that will help them grow.
Attending "good" (read top) schools is one way of reaching ultimate growth. I try very hard to make sure that my kids are among their intellectual peers now that they are young. It will be very sad to have to "settle" for less stimulating school just becasue of the cost. And I am not talking Ivy here, I am talking top 50 schools.</p>

<p>If you wish to attend an IVY, think of Princeston. The school does not give loans. Now, you may not receive enough grant/merit $, and still have to take out a loan on your own - but it's still possible to attend. Being an athlete helps, too. We know of a great student, not NMF, who excelled in track and received a partial scholarship. The parents will have to kick in another $20,000 or so/yr - but the kid is a promising student. (It helps a lot, too, to visit the school and arrange an interview w/the coach.)</p>

<p>
[quote]
So, because lower income people are "used to" that lifestyle, it's easier on them?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Good grief. I am used to my lifestyle, even though it is modest. I might even be lower income than you are. I am used to it and that's fine. I don't begrudge families who have a higher income. But can anybody really argue that middle class folks are in the best of all possible worlds regarding college finances? (if so, they must be at one end or the other rather than the middle.) Has anybody making <$60K been asked to sell their home and wipe out their savings? Is it typical for the EFC to be more than half of the take-home income? Really, I'd like to know. Maybe our case was an aberration, but I suspect not.</p>

<p>Take the example of two working parents who each make less than $50K. Maybe they even have some childcare expenses. Would they not be better off financially for one to quit working and stay home with the kids? They might get full financial aid with only one income. But, if they make $80K or $90K together, they will be almost certainly be expected to pay a large EFC. One parent works = keep your home and your lifestyle (modest though it may be.) Two parents work = please borrow against your home or move. Doesn't seem fair to me.</p>

<p>I don't want to argue and maybe we just have to disagree based upon our own experiences. I'm not talking about belt-tightening here. People should not have to sell their homes and deplete their retirement savings to send their kids to college! I guess that's what state schools are for. ;)</p>

<p>The Travesty of the Elite Colleges’ Elimination of Merit-Based Aid: One Mom’s Opinion</p>

<p>After spending many months with my son researching colleges across the country and finding the “perfect fit” for him, I am appalled by the injustice that is going on with “financial aid.” Although my son could have attended the local state school for free, the best “fit” for his college goals was to attend a highly academic small private liberal arts college. He worked exceedingly hard in order to earn admission to many of our nation’s top ranked colleges and universities.
We are a family of six that is “stuck in the middle” between not qualifying for “financial aid” according to the government standards, and not being able to “afford” the $46,000/year cost of a small private liberal arts college. We are dependent upon merit-based scholarship money in order for him to meet his college goals. There are hundreds of thousands of students in this country that are in this same quandary. Many of these students, like my son, are top-notch kids that have superior achievements and are worthy of merit-based awards. However, we found out in this whole process that although he is worthy of acceptance into some of the most selective schools in the nation, such as Bowdoin, Hamilton and Pomona, he is not worthy to attend, because these selective schools choose not to reward outstanding achievements unless your family makes below a certain income. That income level is dictated by the federal government. If the federal government is the one dictating where my son can afford to attend college, then I would like to be able to receive a federal tax refund in order to pay for my son’s college. If I did not pay such exorbitant taxes, then I would have no problem paying for the so-called elite colleges.
Why are these colleges willing to sacrifice highly qualified students by giving all of their endowment money to “need-based” financial aid, rather than sharing the endowment with merit-based aid?<br>
The elite colleges in this country are always professing that they want diversity on their campuses. They want students with varying backgrounds, values and experiences and yet they are shutting out an entire socio-economic class of families in this country by eliminating merit-based aid.
I have no problem with need-based aid, but I do have a major problem if that need-based aid is given out in lieu of merit-based aid. If the selective colleges could find a balance between need-based and merit-based aids, then they would have true diversity in their student body, while maintaining their high level academic profiles.
There is another solution to this dilemma, but only the colleges with endowments in the billions would be able to meet this challenge. If the so-called elite colleges really wanted a truly diverse, highly academic profiled student body, then they would abolish tuition all together. Many of the Ivy League institutions have big enough endowments to accomplish such a bold challenge, but are they brave enough? By abolishing tuition, many of the superior academic upper-middle class students would then willingly apply to these highly selective institutions. The applicant pool would thereby be the best possible, since there would not be the obstacle of tuition that prevents many of them from attending or even applying. The typical “trust fund babies” would continue to apply and attend, and most likely donate to the endowment anyway, even if there was no tuition. This would enable the endowments to continue to be funded.<br>
In the end, our family chose not to second mortgage our home and my son chose not to bury himself in student loan debt, in order to attend one of the so-called elite colleges. My son made the decision to attend Hobart College, which is an excellent academic institution that still believes in rewarding superior academic achievements and potential, by investing in merit-based scholarships as well as need-based scholarships.
I believe more and more highly qualified upper middle-class students will continue to flock away from the so-called elite colleges that have chosen to eliminate merit-based scholarships, and attend colleges and universities that reward achievements regardless of the family income level.
As a result, these other colleges will get the highly academic profiled student body that is truly diverse. We are very grateful to all of the institutions that continue to honor and award merit-based and need-based scholarships, some of which include from our experience: Case Western, Clark University, Emory, Hobart, Loyola, NYU, Occidental, Rollins, Skidmore, Stonehill, and Trinity College.
In my humble opinion as a mom, any college or university that wants to maintain the highest level of academic excellence and a diverse student body, should either invest in merit-based scholarships or abolish tuition all together.</p>