<p>Being a valedictorian is just the one GPA number, and selective schools don't choose students by one number. The valedictorian often doesn't have the highest test scores, the best recs, the best ECs, the best essays, the most rigorous classes, etc..</p>
<p>In a 2005 admissions presentation I recall the adm representative at Brown University stating that something like 280 Valedictorians had been denied admission in the previous admissions year.</p>
<p>Please understand that it is a big, big world out there and there are many talentet students applying to the top schools plus athletes and the children of alums</p>
<p>Plus, there is not a neccesary rule that a Valedictorian is more qualified than a person who's ranked at the bottom of the first decile. It all depends. The val. at some crappy inner city public school probally cant compare to #10/100 at Phillips Exter.</p>
<p>The valedictorians each year I've been there from my school went to these colleges:</p>
<p>Freshman year: UNC-CH (Morehead Scholar, instate)
Sophomore year: UNC/Wake Forest (Carolina Scholar, instate/Some other big scholarship to Wake that I can't remember the name to..like Reynolds Scholar or something like that)
Junior year: UNC-CH (instate)
Senior year: Looks like our current val will attend either GT, VT, or NC State (both the kids that are duking it out are engineer types)</p>
<p>Anyways, obviously the vals my freshman and soph year could have gone somewhere else (I know the UNC val my soph year was also admitted to Davidson), but they have consistently chosen not to for one reason or another.</p>
<p>In a large high school, the numerical/GPA difference between no. 1 and no. 20 is slight. Let's take these real life examples from my kids' school. Assume a class size of 600. Who would you want to take? #1 in class, with ZERO ECs. (Her parents won't allow any.) OR #5 in class, on soccer team, varsity for 3 years. I think most schools would prefer the scholar athelete who was almost at the top over the girl at the top who literally only studied.</p>
<p>But the valedictorian at some inner-city public school may beat out the #10/100 at Phillips Exeter for admission to many selective private schools due to other hooks, especially by being more unusual. Admission at these schools is based on their needs when crafting their classes.</p>
<p>My daughter graduated first in a class of 375, SATs 710 V/800 M, SAT IIs 800/790/790, 6 APs (max at our school; 5 5s, 1 3). I mention the stats to show that she was indeed "very smart," though she freely admitted that there were kids in class more "brilliant" than she is (more lopsided in their interests, as well). She was waitlisted at Duke, which had been her first choice school. Two kids in her class were accepted there (both ED, one a double legacy, one with exceptional state-level ECs). Duke was the highest-ranked school on her list - she knew she wanted out of the northeast, so no Ivies. She wound up at the school that had initially been third on her list, but that shot to the top with a great scholarship offer.</p>
<p>Her stats/recs/essays/ECs were good enough for her to receive significant merit aid at all the private schools she applied to except Duke, and to be named to the honors programs at all the public schools she applied to. But we don't really even wonder why she didn't make it at Duke. She's an example of how acceptance to the very top schools is out of the applicant's hands, once the applicant has done his/her best. Sometimes they're just looking for something you're not. Maybe the adcoms really mean it when they say it's more than the stats.</p>
<p>frazzeled1, your post reminded me of when I was interviewing for jobs while in law school. Another girl and I discovered that we looked identical on paper...race, gender, undergrad, grades, marital status, etc. etc. down to the length and color of our hair. There was only one firm that invited both of us for an office interview. We figured the others thought they already had one of us, why did they need two?</p>
<p>I'm not really sure what the school tells the colleges about all the #1's. Our school district keeps changing the calculation for top 10% every year because students and parents complain. For the current seniors some courses were weighted higher than others so kids with less than 100 GPA are ranked higher because they took the "right" courses in the right order (they took the unranked courses such as health and speech after the ranks were calculated). The district weights AP classes at 1.29 so my son's strategy is to take all AP classes and get high C's. That and his automatic 100 in football should get him a weighted 100 average also. The whole thing is pretty crazy. It's no wonder the colleges look at SAT scores so closely.</p>
<p>"The district weights AP classes at 1.29 so my son's strategy is to take all AP classes and get high C's. That and his automatic 100 in football should get him a weighted 100 average also."</p>
<p>That is unbelievable when in a comparable school a C+ in an AP couse is maybe a 3.3 weighted??? ( and no, football would never count.....)</p>
<p>Due to the high grade weights this year there are around 125 seniors ranked #1.</p>
<p>This can have the unintended consequence that colleges think there is no one special coming from this high school. :(</p>
<p>But how does a C+ in an AP class put a student at the top when there are other students getting an A in the same AP class? Shouldn't they all be ahead of him? </p>
<p>I'm starting to wonder if we've made the wrong decision in having our son take so many AP classes. If he gets a C in AP Bio, but could have received a high A in a "regular" science class, he would have recevied points for the regular class.</p>
<p>Many times, the #1 rank in a class doesn't necessarily equal the brightest kid in the class. Often times these kids have calculated exactly what classes will easily allow them to gain this spot. They bulk up their schedules with Art, Band, and easy electives so that the "easy A's" will up their GPA. College Admissions offices can see right through this. When they get the high school transcript, they immediately recalculate the GPA by using the core subjects---Math, English, Science (and not those "cake" science electives), History, and Foreign Language. Then they use their own weighting system for AP and Honors. Often times, this re-adjustment brings the Valedictorian's GPA down. And yes, it's true--Valedictorians get rejected from top notch schools. This year's #1 kid in my son's school got rejected from Fordham yet my son got in (he took many more AP classes plus was involved in athletics, etc.). Many high schools are actually doing away with ranking.</p>
<p>nysmile, your logic only applies to unweighted rankings. A lot of schools (like my own) rank based on a weighted-average system, where AP and honors courses do count more than regular classes i.e. art, electives, etc. So while you can "play the game right," that doesn't mean you can take the "easy" way out to #1. You still would have to take difficult courses AND do well in them.</p>
<p>I'm starting to wonder if we've made the wrong decision in having our son take so many AP classes.</p>
<p>For your schools of interest, check their Common Data Set section C7. "Rigor of secondary school record" and "Class rank" (among others) have the possible weightings "Very Important, Important, Considered, Not Considered."</p>
<p>E.g., our D's school says</p>
<p>Rigor of secondary school record - Very Important
Class rank - Important</p>
<p>Such schools imply that taking available AP classes is preferable to earning a higher GPA.</p>
<p>^I would agree with this. In my high school, many people who took a lot of APs had lower 'class ranks' because AP classes and honors classes are weighted the same. Thankfully, elite colleges seem to regularly reward those who take the crapload of APs (and manage to have strong ECs and test scores, of course..). </p>
<p>Many of those who make it to the top of the class aren't even the most driven or hardworking students, they are often those who take the 'right classes'. There were many classes in my high school which were serious 'easy A's' but there were many teachers who gave out a lot of B's and C's without mercy.</p>
<p>Class rank will mean more to my daughters than it will to my son. He has Asperger's Syndrome and needs a small LAC. I think they will appreciate the rigor of his course load. My daughters are more likely to gravitate toward large state schools where being in the top 10% is more important (here in Texas).</p>
<p>My school is full of people that took the "easy electives" to boost their gpa's. I actually have the highest overall average for the last 4 years, yet am ranked #2. Why? Because I took accelerated classes in Jr. High that they decided to put on my transcript (6th, 7th, 8th grade classes). These grades are 91, 93, 94, while my overall average is a 99.05. I missed the #1 spot by .05 in the end. Clearly, if these middle school classes had not counted, I would be far ahead of the current #1.</p>
<p>Starbright said: In our circles, where everyone is a PhD and a prof at various top universities around the country, NONE OF US cares where their kids go to undergrad because we know it doesn't matter (other than being a nice fit for our kids' major). That tells you something.</p>
<p>Thanks, Starbright. That is interesting. My daughter fears that if she doesn't get into an elite college, that affects her chance to get into a good post-graduate program. I don't have the knowledge to be able to agree or disagree with her, other than to think to myself that it's plausible; I tell her that she must not worry, that all she can do is to pursue what she wants with enthusiasm, and see where the road takes her. (I think this is regarded as the kind of pablum that fathers say to their kids).</p>
<p>Chicagoboy12, was it made clear to you in jr. high that those grades would count in your GPA? When my son took three high school classes in 8th grade, we were told that they would be given high school credit, but would not be computed in the GPA. I think they were true to their word EXCEPT that they are still shown on the transcript. Even if it doesn't affect the GPA/ranking, my son's C in Algebra from 8th grade doesn't look too good! (But it does sort of explain why he went from the pre-AP math track in middle school to the "regular" track.)</p>