career advice from practicing attorneys

Parents Forum
1

<p>I was reading a thread on the law school forum and an existing attorney answered the poster's question and added " I still wonder why anyone would WANT to be a lawyer anymore..."</p>

<p>As a dentist, I would love my daughters to enter my profession, but neither one feels so inclined. My wife is a corporate middle manager type and she would definitely guide them away from that. I also know many physicians who have advised their children not to become MDs because of the current malpractice/health insurance problems. </p>

<p>My older D is basically undecided, but considering pre-law in college. She is extremely bright, well spoken and has stats competitive for any school in the country (a BWRK in CC vernacular). Would the practicing attorneys advise their own children to pursue the law? Why or why not? Which subspecialties provide the best combination of income & job satisfaction?</p>

<p>Thanks for any and all advice!</p>

2

<p>as a former lawyer, i have been very happy that neither child has ever expressed an interest in the law. and i do think many people going into law school have no idea what it really means to be a lawyer. and what it means to be a lawyer can mean a thousand different things depending upon what type of practice you have (type of law, size of firm, etc.)
why didn't i like it? hours stunk - the deadlines are real - the work needs to get done when the court or client says it needs to get done. lawyers for the most part are a pretty aggressive, argumentative group of people - makes for interesting classroom debates - makes for miserable work environment (and i'm not even just talking about the opposing lawyers, but the ones you work with!)
the happiest lawyers i know are the ones who have their own practice or are part of a small practice and do basic every day type of law that regular people need - and this was the type of legal practice most "looked down on" in terms of what a prestigious law school will try to be preparing you for - and probably also the hardest to earn a great living.</p>

3

<p>I am almost reluctant to weigh in here as another lawyer disappointed in the state of the profession and the opportunities. I chose to spend my career in-house, working in the legal departments of corporations. Most recently, I have been General Counsel of two dysfunctional corporations. Right now I am going in a new direction- I am totally burned out on corporate America.
I am not discouraging S from considering law, but I want him to go into it with eyes wide open, and not feel obliged to do the big firm track. I think law school provides an excellent education and teaches some crucial critical thinking skills. However, I am just not sure the normal career tracks are healthy for anyone. I agree that a small practice representing the community "folk" may be the most rewarding in the long run. I would also take a look at a government track. At my age I am thinking "job security" and "benefits", which is NOT what concerned me at 24!</p>

4

<p>Another non-practicing lawyer here. Went to a prestigious law school, worked for a prestigious law firm on the West Coast--I agree with unbelievablm that the hours were terrible (the firm really was the #1 priority in my life while I worked there--became a real issue after I had a family); the litigation side of law was often tedious (paperwork!!!!) and very scorched-earth nasty. Quit when my oldest was almost 3 with the idea that if we needed the money, I would go back to work. Thankfully, never ran out of money and that was 15 years ago! (THANK YOU, H!!)</p>

<p>Some of my female lawyer friends are still in the field. Most started out at high-powered firms, got good experience for 3-7 years and then either moved in-house or moved to smaller firms. Many are in tax-related fields (employee benefits, estate planning, general business tax) or are specialists writing appeal briefs. These areas seem to be less filled with the pressures of a corporate or litigation practice. But it is also not on the fast track at any law firm.</p>

<p>The practice of law--the advice I would give any kid going into it is that they better LOVE the law--don't go into it because it pays a lot of money and you just don't know what you want to do with your English degree.</p>

5

<p>I am a practicing lawyer who loves my (nontraditional) practice...certainly, there are times, clients and issues that cause me stress -- but I believe there are times, projects and people in any profession/job that cause stress...that's not unique to law.</p>

<p>My son has talked about law school in an undecided "ruminating" sort of way...I'd support him 100% (and if I can I'll even pay for his law school)...the law has been good to me (and I believe I've been good to it)...plus, there are so many different ways to practice law, or use a law degree...the choices are really limitless...</p>

<p>To me, it comes down to your choice of law work...certainly there are cutthroat environments and brutal work hours--and that's where the huge bucks are, at least starting out. But there are also firms, law departments in companies and trade associations, and private practice choices that pay the bills (comfortably!) and provide an awful lot of "pyschic satisfaction" along the way.</p>

<p>There's really no professional feeling (that I've found) that quite matches knowing you've helped someone who really deserves the help by bringing your skill and knowledge to the task. I am fortunate--I have several "war stories" in my career where I can really see my "fingerprints" on the outcome, on issues in which I believe deeply, for people about whom I grew to care quite a lot.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I certainly know those who've burnt out (and I won't guarantee I won't burn out, either); I know those whose work lives are "brutal"...it all comes down to the lawyer's choices of work, work environment, and client (and that includes balancing the income potential)--</p>

6

<p>oh and another thing i thought regarding the realities of practice --
in law school school you get to engage in a lot of theoretical discussions and debates - there isn't always a clear right or wrong answer.
in the practice of law - your clients want an answer - yes or no - no long theoretical discussion - just can we do this or not - and if the answer is "not," they aren't always real happy about it. there can be a lot of pressure from the client and your law firm superiors to come up with the answer the client wants. you have to have an enormous amount of self confidence and fortitude to withstand that if you are not going to let that influence your advice. i was lucky in that i worked at firms where although the partners might push really hard, if you held your ground and could support it, they ended up backing you up with the client.
people attracted to the law are often attracted to the challenge of coming up with answers to "legal puzzles" - sometimes that challenge takes on a life of its own and you can forget the bigger picture.</p>

7

<p>Another non-practicing lawyer here. I had the neighborhood law practice, and heard all the sob stories, and loved helping. Very difficult to make a decent living. They want your help, but don't want to pay for all the time it takes to do a really good job. Friends of mine started in a (in the news all the time) top firm, and quit because of the pressure to bill, and the ways that were used to generate billable hours - (minimum 60 hours per week required of each attorney). Have spoken to D and she will never go into law. I had to deal with the politics - the client crying on the stand because the opposing atty wanted to know her address and which flight she was taking at what time, etc.,(hiding from abusive H) and judge telling her she had to tell, because the other atty donated to his election campaign. Stomach turned many times. If child is an idealist - the law isn't the place to be. Loved being able to help, hated the disillusionment. Yet, I won many, many more than I ever lost. And it can be boring - tedious - drafting the same document over and over. And there was the case where I took on the builder in our subdivision, and had to hire my own atty - they spent a lot of money avoiding the issues, and attacking me instead of just settling. It would haqve cost them less. The judge threw it out, but not until I spent a lot of $. This happens when you take on the tough cases. And I can't remember how many times the other side simply poured a whole lot more $ than my clients had, and we were forced to settle because the client couldn't afford to continue, or I continued, and never was paid. The lawyer that I worked for while in law school is now a teacher, and lead his inner city school debate team to state - they never even had a team before! He did neighborhood and real estate law. He said he was finally fulfilled. Law is not what it was cracked up to be.</p>

8

<p>Another less than happy lawyer here. I think my decision to go to law school was a very ill informed choice. I did well on the LSAT and somehow thought that might be a sign I should go to law school. How I wish I had read a thread like this 25 years ago! </p>

<p>There are some things I do like about being a lawyer, but if I had to do it all over again, I would not go to law school (Actually, I liked law school just fine. It's being a lawyer I don't much care for.) I was one of those kids who was told repeatedly, "You love to argue so much, you should be a lawyer!" It wasn't until much later that I realized that I didn't so much love to argue as that I loved being right (and winning, of course). I really dislike confrontation, and that is probably the most unpleasant aspect of my job. Well, that and the tedium, but I've opted for a somewhat tedious type of practice rather than a more exciting, more stressful practice to keep my sanity and my blood pressure in check.</p>

<p>I agree to some extent with those who've touted the small town/small firm practice as being more tolerable. I work part-time doing appellate briefs for a friend who is a solo practitioner, and I definitely have a family-friendly schedule. But there are some aspects of the small firm practice that I think don't occur to lots of law students or young lawyers when they decide to go that route. The main surprise to a lot of them is that they are not just lawyers but are business men and women as well. Running a small business is not something that was taught at my law school, and it is something that I have never had an interest in doing. That's why I'm the part-time employee and my friend is the business owner. </p>

<p>My kids have mentioned possibly going to law school, but they're young enough that I think I'll have time to talk them out of it or at least to make sure they know what they're getting into.</p>

9

<p>Responding to unbelievablem's post:</p>

<p>Today lawyers, like most other people, are expected to be problem solvers, not just givers of advice. That can make life more interesting, if you like the problems. There are, unfortunately, some people whose philisophy consists strictly of (or who like to behave as if their philosophy consists strictly of) "I didn't hire you to tell me what I can't do - I hired you to tell me how to do what I want to do." In some, maybe many, cases, a way can be found to do what, or most of what, the client wants to do (sometimes even without a huge expenditure; other times there will be a sizable expenditure), but sometimes there just isn't a way. That's when things get difficult, including trying to practice law in a sensible way. </p>

<p>I also have been fortunate most of the time to have the necessary backing when I have had to take a firm stance - but only most of the time.</p>

10

<p>perhaps the key to happiness as a lawyer is whether you like your clients and feel comfortable letting their goals dictate your professional life? (and i dont' mean dictate in a bad way - just by definition, i think one's clients exercise enormous control/influence over what that lawyer's professional life will be like - yes the lawyer has the ability to determine how to respond, but if you aren't in sync with the clients, i think you are more likely to be unhappy)</p>

<p>by the way, i notice the thread has been largely dominated by those of us who have been less than happy as lawyers - do we outnumber, or are we just the ones with time to post here? :)</p>

11

<p>UnbelieveableM - I also noticed the near monoploy of the disenchanted. So I write as a perfectly content lawyer, practicing for two decades, and a partner at one of the larger firms in NYC. If my S wants to go to law school, I would fully endorse it. The number of tracks available to a quality law graduate is so great and varied that I believe almost anyone can find their niche. Mine was with a big firm. Friends went the government route, or the in-house route, or the small firm route, or the sole practitioner route. Some used the skills they learned in the corporate non-legal world. And some left the law. Make no mistake, law can be hard work. If it was all fun, we wouldn't have to pay people to do it. And you do, indeed, meet your share of jerks, both colleagues and clients. But what profession or job doesn't? (Law was a second career for me - government was first. Trust me, there are more jerks in government than in law.) I've also met and gotten to work some of the best and smartest people around. And while not often thought of as a creative endeavor, a good lawyer does his job best by being creative, and solving problems. One can derive great satisfaction by solving a problem that had no apparant solution. So while it's not for everyone, it worked for me and for many others.</p>

12

<p>I'll add---I had some very, very positive experiences as a lawyer! I loved law school and worked briefly in-house in a corporation and then in state govt. </p>

<p>The government (fed or state) is certainly an area to consider if you want challenging, substantive work right out of the gate from law school, some prestige and <em>very</em> <em>very</em> manageable hours. </p>

<p>I had a young child when I started working for the gov---I'd get home at night at 6:30 regularly (and no weekend work!). That's almost unheard of in the private sector. Plus it was exceptionally rewarding to work on the side of 'right!'</p>

<p>As was stated earlier, there are numerous avenues to pursue in the law. And I was exceptionally fortunate to meet a variety of truly wonderful people in the profession---highly ethical, intelligent and generous individuals, at all levels.</p>

<p>I've been away for a few years (baby!) but am looking forward to starting back part-time (great hub enables me not to have to work full-time...)</p>

<p>:-)</p>

13

<p>I've enjoyed being a litigator. Dealing with questions of right and wrong ... using the powers of tongue and pen ... the competitive aspect ... the good pay ... it turned out to be the right job for me, and now my older son (college rising senior) wants to go the same route and I've endorsed it.</p>

<p>At age 48 I find myself burning out a bit but it's not clear to me whether that grows out of the law or my own personal makeup.</p>

<p>The problem of long hours, overwork and deadlines can be dealt with, at least in part, through a combination of planning, discipline, and having the courage to say "no."</p>

14

<p>Goodness. As I physician I must say that the sentiments expressed here are very similar to the sentiments physicians express about our profession! I am very very fortunate that I LOVE what I do, but I've made lots of career sacrifices to do it and be an active mother. My sister the lawyer who worked for 10 years as a cog in the wheel of a huge firm feeling like she was getting nowhere, and now is VP of a large, brand-name corporation now loves what she does. I tell all the students I see (high school through med school) that the MOST important thing is to find your passion and pursue it. If you don't love what you do, then the 80 to 100 hour work weeks will only be misery. If you love what you do, they seem like 20 hour weeks.</p>

15

<p>"The problem of long hours, overwork and deadlines can be dealt with, at least in part, through a combination of planning, discipline, and having the courage to say "no.""</p>

<p>perhaps at a certain point in one's career or perhaps in certain types of practices this becomes more of an option - but i think it is misleading to encourage prospective lawyers and young lawyers to believe this will be true earlier in their careers.
in my experience, firms work on the meritocracy of good work being rewarded with more work. and one of the fastest track to a poor evaluation is turning down the 'reward' of more work (yes, once in awhile you can be too busy, but don't get the rep of refusing work too often). yes, if you are really really good, a firm is more likely to allow you more leeway, but unless things have changed a lot since i was in the field, i think most young lawyers in big firms don't have the ability to take this type of control unless they are willing to not stay there.</p>

16

<p>unbelievablem,</p>

<p>In any profession, one has to "pay their dues" starting out. Is it realistic to get into the comfort zone that Roscoe mentioned after you've established your reputation? Can a female lawyer reach the point where she can balance family & professional responsibilities?</p>

17

<p>Did you hear about the terrorists who took a whole courtroom full of lawyers hostage?
They threatened to release one every hour until their demands where met.</p>

<p>I actually saw a survey of attorneys not too long ago - 70 percent said that they wouldn't become lawyers if they could do it over again.</p>

18

<p>"Can a female lawyer reach the point where she can balance family & professional responsibilities?"</p>

<p>There are both male and female lawyers who end up finding a "balance" that works for them -- but where any individual lawyer will find that "balance" will vary -- what professional responsibilities are considered acceptable? What are you willing to trade off in terms of making partner versus making every little league game? Will you be satisfied drafting appellate briefs, or do you want to be making the appellate arguments? Will you be satisfied doing the research to allow the decision-makers to decide what to do or do you want to be one of the decision makers? Are you happy drafting the papers, or do you want to be the one going to court? Do you want to earn a top lawyer's salary, or can you get by on a less?</p>

<p>As with any profession, a person has to choose what is important to them.</p>

<p>The reason I think the legal profession particularly raises some problematic issues is that the very same things that lawyers are encourged to believe contribute to a fulfilling satisfying legal career are often the same that make it very hard to draw the line on how much time your professional career will take from your life. You want client contact - well then the client wants to be able to reach you and know that you will be there to work on the case. You want responsibility - well then you have to be responsible for meeting the deadline. You want a chance to see the big picture - well then you need to devote the time to be involved in the big picture. You want to be a litigator - you better be available when the court says to be there. </p>

<p>I don't think these issues are unique to female lawyers - if anything female lawyers may find it a little easier just because our society is still more accepting of women demanding their family time than men doing so. But that doesn't mean there aren't serious tradeoffs and decisions that have to be made in demanding that time.</p>

<p>The question is not whether a female lawyer (or any lawyer) can find a balance - the question is what does she want from her family life and what does she want from her professional life and are those compatible, and if not, where is she willing to make her compromises.</p>

<p>And in terms of paying ones dues - I can't say if it is true today (of even if it was universally true back then) - but when I first started working for a law firm I was told that the biggest misconception new lawyers had was that things got easier once they "made partner" - that the hardest working group of lawyers at a big firm was the young partners.</p>

19

<p>I'm a little surpised at the lack of satisfaction displayed here. I have also chosen the in-house route, with a mix of wonderful companies, dysfunctional ones, and dysfunctional law departments within wonderful companies. I keep reasonable hours, have enough time for family, make a good but not spectacular living. The work is sometimes interesting, sometimes dull. I enjoy being around non-lawyers as part of the business. I'm not saying that I'm thrilled with my job all the time, but I'm generally happy and satisfied. I remember reading somewhere that a lawyer was asked if he "loved his job and the law". He said "NO. I'm not a millionaire shortstop on a major league team, I'm a lawyer. But I like my job, and it pays well enough to allow me to do the things that I DO love. That ain't half bad"</p>

20

<p>I am also a former lawyer, and my ex is still practicing. We have two kids, both of whom have the natural talents to be great lawyers (frequently commented on by others) - and neither of whom is in the slight bit interested in law or pre-law. We are both very happy to see our kids go off in other directions.</p>

<p>I'm answering this before reading other posts - so if I am repetitive, I'm sorry.</p>

<p>I'll start with the reason I wanted to be a lawyer: I wanted to change the world and do good things for the downtrodden of society. I grew up in the 50's & 60's during the height of the civil rights movement and the Warren court, so I saw lawyering in terms of the many groundbreaking constitutional decisions that came out of the court at the time. Brown vs. Board of Education. Gideon vs. Wainwright. </p>

<p>Well, it's darn hard to make a living that way. Not impossible - but tough. Worse -- the mood of the courts has changed. I did practice the kind of law I wanted to in the late 70's and early 80's -- but instead of seeing progress, I saw a lot of what I worked for curtailed and cut back over the years. Some exceptions - but for the most part life isn't so good these days for public interest lawyers. </p>

<p>All that would be ok if it was still possible to get a law degree for the $750/year I paid for tuition as a California resident paying to attend a UC law school. Or even $5K or $10K/year in today's dollars. Not so.... in-state tuition is now around the $20K mark -- and rising. But public interest lawyers' salaries haven't risen that much; a kid coming out of law school and starting in the public defender, city attorney or DA's office is likely to have a starting salary in the low $40K range. So the debt structure for law school now is based on the idea that everyone will become a big firm lawyer and earn megabucks - which never has been the case - many more law grads end up in public sector jobs. </p>

<p>So basically, I wouldn't want to see my kids coming out of law school $100K+ in debt and either have their career options limited by the debt, or find themselves still paying it off 20 years out of school. It's going to be hard enough for them to build enough of a foundation from their earnings to start to build up saving for their own families. </p>

<p>The big firm jobs are all very high stress and demand extraordinarily long hours. So even with the money, that's not always an attractive option, especially for women who would like to have their own families. (Or men who would like their marriages to last) I found law to be a rather unforgiving profession once my attention was divided between my career and childrearing -- a lot of opportunities for part-time work, but most of them didn't offer much in the way of benefits or career advancement. For a while I harbored the delusion that at least I had a skill that was worth more in terms of generating income as a part-time worker... but truthfully, my net income is higher these days without practicing law. (Self-employed lawyering grossed more - but it was very high overhead, especially with issues like malpractice coverage.)</p>

<p>Also, when I quit practicing law I discovered something amazing: I got a job that was 35 hours a week, and my employer thought that was "full time". Imagine getting a regular salary + benefits and going home every day at 4:30!</p>

<p>I would not be upset if either of my kids chose to go to law school - but I will not encourage them. It's a rough profession. I think the only people who should go to law school are young people who have a very clear idea of why they want to be lawyers and what they want out of a legal career -- preferably a realistic idea. </p>

<p>In my day, many students simply went because they didn't know what else to do with their undergraduate degrees, or it seemed like a good foundation for a possible career in politics, or just because that's what their parents wanted them to do. For what I paid for my education, that made some sense. But things are very different now.</p>