<p>Hello poeple. I have several questions. First let me give you a litlle background infromation. I always wanted to be a lawyer. I want to practice entertainment law. I even got my undergraduate degree (from ucla) with the purpose of going to Law school. I could not go straight to Law school after I graduated becasuse of financial reasons, and because I needed to help out my wife get her degree (meaning that I had to work so that she could concentrate in her school). I ended up in a profession that I enjoy (within the law enforcement field). Within about 4 years I can make roughly 75,000.00 a year. The hours are great. I even have the option of working 2 1/2 days per week and having the rest of the week off (I would actually stay at the job site for those 2 1/2 days, and work two 16 hr shifts for the first 2 days and an eight hour shift on the last day). There will be very little take home work-if any. Obviously this is a decent (not "get rich" money, but good enogh to make a confortable living) income, but the true value in this job is the amount of free time you have. Again, let me reiterate: work 2 1/2 days, get the rest of the week off, get paid roughly about $75,000 a year + excellent benifits and retirement. Leisure time is extremely important to me. I am by no means a workaholic. I do believe in hard work, but I think that there is alot more to life than just working. Good quality time with my wife is very important to me (and her). My first question is? Will I, as a practicing attorney, have quality time to spend with my wife? My second question is for practicing lawyers. How does the $75,000.00 /yr sallary compare to the sallary of a recent graduate attorney, and how does the money/free-time ratio compare between my current profession and that of a Lawyer. In other words, will it be worth it for me to give up that amount of free time in turn for the money an attorney makes? Or will the amount of time that an attorney has to put in to be able to make good money (good money being at least $100,000.00/yr) not be worth giving up all that free time?. I want to make it very clear that I don't concider Law as a career just for the money. I always wanted to be a lawyer, even since I was a teenager. My only concern is the amount of time that lawyers need to work in proportion to the pay. Thanks for any help.</p>
<p>Lawyers tend to work longer hours, and make more money, than people in most other lines of work. Some lawyers make more money than others, and some work longer hours than others. Those who work longer hours tend to make more money, although the correlation beteen the two is imperfect.</p>
<p>One hears a lot on this board and elsewhere about salaries of $135k per year for novices, you'll probably find that attorneys who make more than $75k per annum four years into their careers are in the minority. It may be a sizable minority, but it's still a minority. </p>
<p>If you view your choices as either (a) staying in law enforcement, or (b) leaving your job and going to law school full time, it's quite likely that choosing option (b) would put you financially behind where you would be by choosing option (a) for many years, particularly if you factor in the opportunity cost of giving up your job, plus student loans.</p>
<p>It sounds like you have the sort of job that might be ideal for going to law school part time. I hear that's a common career path for ambitious people in law enforcement.</p>
<p>I can't speak to the financial situation, but you might want to consider how your future career will mesh with your wife's career, particularly if you intend to have a children. Not only should you consider family organization in the preschool years, but also how the two jobs will coordinate with the many years of children's school schedules. Some dads are very involved while others are perpetually absent. All I can say is that I am glad my husband was around to see his kids and had the job flexibility to be present when needed.</p>
<p>I know a lot of attorneys (big firms, small firms, single lawyer practice, government, and in-house corporate) and few work 40 hours or less per week. Hours tend to be lower for in-house corporate lawyers or government lawyers rather than private practice, but even those in-house and government lawyers are often more than 40 a week. Personally have been in private practice for many years and average work week is still 50 or higher.</p>
<p>Average starting salaries for new lawyers are actually below your $75,000 and probably closer to $45,000 to $50,000 range. Top students, usually from higher ranked law schools, can start at $135,000 or more at large firms. But that applies to less than 10% of all law school graduates and their average work week as a new lawyer can be 60 hours and higher. An experienced private practice lawyer in a small firm with a decent client base can make more than $100,000 a year but will likely work 50 hours a week.</p>
<p>Thank you for all your replies. There are two things that I'll discuss here. First, I have thought about going to Law school part-time, but I'm not really concerned with "Law school" (except for the financial part of course), my biggest reason for questioning a career in law is what happens AFTER law school. That is, how many hours per week (on average, I know some weeks will have a standard diviation of plus and minus hours) will I have to work to make a respecful amount of money. Now I want to talk about money in proprtion to time not because all I care about is money, but because I also care about quality time with my wife. I think that I will really enjoy practicing law, but I do have a problem with having to spend 50 to 60 (or even more) hours per week working to earn 75K. Like I stated before, I could make that amount of money and have 4 1/2 days off to do with them what I please. However, if, as a new graduate, I can earn about 100k to 120k per year, I would not mind working 60 (even 70) hours a week for a few years until more doors open. But if this is not realistic, then I'm really going to have to think hard on this issue. The second thing that I want to address is the issue of children. Neither my wife or I want any children (for reasons that many people and I do not see eye to eye on). So the whole raising the children topic is not an issue. However, like I stated before, it is VERY important for me to spend time with my wife. Spending time with my wife is as important to me as is spending time with their offspring to parents. My wife will be a nurse Practitioner, and they have a pretty flexible schedule to work with. From what I'm getting, here is the bottom line (please correct me if I'm wrong). (A)Carrer in Law = 90k in student loans, very competitive job market, work 50, 60, even 70+ hours to make about 75K a year as a new attorney. (B)Continue my career in law enforcement= No loan debt, already in so no need to compete for a job, 75k a year with plenty of time off for leisuer. Although I really like law, right now it is just sounding like a bad business deal for me. If you have more information please let me know, I want to really have many tools at my disposal so that I can make an informed, intelligent decision. Thanks</p>
<p>I have to agree with you that you seem to have a pretty sweet deal right now. Flexible scheduling may eventually allow your wife to consolidate her work week also, thus giving you both extended days off together (if you keep on with law enforcement). At my work, some folks love the option of the seven days on alternating with seven days off schedule. It has allowed single people, childless people and people whose children are grown the time to travel or attend to other personal business. Imaging having three weeks off every time you take a vacation!</p>
<p>I have a similar albeit very different situation. I currently make significantly more than starting attorney salaries and woul dnot likely surpass my current income until more than seven years after law school. Makes it a bit of a hard pill to swallow in terms of taking the three year income hit. Note that the top range of starting salaries are only for the top law firms in general with most of those spots filled by T14 graduates. If you want a good indication, study for and take the LSAT to see if you have a shot at a T14 school. If you do, then you can evaluate your potential to earn top money in the end.</p>
<p>Just my $.02</p>
<p>oh man, if i had a job like the OP's, there's NO WAY I'd be in law school. </p>
<p>Maybe, if you're really interested in the law, you could use some of your days off to help domestic violence victims get orders of protection, or become a guardian ad litem, or volunteer to teach prisoners, or work for a policy organization or a politician or something (not sure if any of this would be a conflict of interest with your career). </p>
<p>And if you're interested in law because of the money, could you just get another part-time job for your days off? The two jobs could very closely approximate the salary you'd get as an attorney (perhaps not as much as the top grads of top law schools make, but not bad) and you wouldn't have any loans, so it might even work out better for you.</p>
<p>If you wanted to try law school part-time, you wouldn't have to give up your current job. It might be a way to begin down another path without going so far that it would be difficult to return. (get a glimpse of law without investing too much time or money).</p>
<p>Once again, thanks for all the replies. Since I like to look at the "Big Picture" of things, I'm going to ask something for those attorneys who have more experience under their belts. I know that recent grads go through a rough time echonomically, socially, and emotionally, however, one does not remain a "recent grad" all his/her life. How does a career in law shape up to be about five to seven years of practicing Law. Again, how is it in terms of income, time off, and overall happiness. I'm willing to "pay my dues" for a few years, but only if there is plenty of room for advancement, both in work load and money. I hate to mention the word "money" so much. I hope it doesn't make me sound like that's the only thing that matters to me. It is not. However, we can't be naive about things and we know that money, not the "Love" for a profession, pays the bills. Afterall, law schools require that you pay "money" if you want to attend Law school right? You can't just write down on a piece of paper, "I love Law" and turn it in as tuition. Thanks people for any help.</p>
<p>Short Answer: No.</p>
<p>Remember, the 6 figure salaries are for either elite lawyers or those lawyers in specialties that pay well and have years of associate experience (working 80+ hours a week). </p>
<p>You have a sweet job. Considering your situation, the opportunity cost for becoming a lawyer is too high and will cause strain on your relationships, ability to have a family, and finances (in the short run at least). Heck, being a lawyer is a terrific strain on young up and coming 25 year law-grads as it is.</p>
<p>3 years of law school is 3 years of deferred income as well. You will lose 225k in income and have over 100k in debt. In addition you are by no means guaranteed a 6-figure income.</p>
<p>You might eventually make more money but will it be worth the extra hours and the 300k swing in life earnings you took during your years in law school? Will it be worth the strain on your family life? Would you really enjoy entertainment law enough to commit to it and do it for at least 10 years of your life (to make the law degree profitable)?</p>
<p>Honestly I do not think 6 figure salaries are for elite lawyers at all. I work with a number of real estate attorneys (hardly elite big law) that bill anywhere between $225 to $450 per hour. Yes, there is overhead, but looking at the appraisal district data on their homes, they are NOT hurting. </p>
<p>Besides, if a relatively mid level programmer makes over $100,000 fairly easily, it stands to reason that $100,000 plus for an attorney (unless simply unqualified) is not a stretch at all. EVERY attorney I know personally makes well in excess of that amount.</p>
<p>Go to LS if you are passionate about practicing law. If not, don't do it. An MBA is cheaper to come by and more lucrative in the long run if all you are passionate about is money.</p>
<p>scottieut,
You are making a lot of assumptions about salaries in law that are just not accurate across the board, nor realistic. Even if every lawyer that you know does make six figures (How many lawyers is that? Do they share their tax returns with you?), that is hardly typical of what you find out there. Search the threads that I have begun on this law school forum to find some recent data from NALP that I posted that describes very accurately salary information for lawyers across the U.S. </p>
<p>Remember, too, that just because someone has a big house or a fancy car does not in any way mean that they have a big income (no offense intended - I'm not trying to describe your friends here). Plenty of people live on the very cusp of insolvency -- just one missed payment away from losing it all. It only takes a few hundred dollars a month to lease a Mercedes, and an interest only mortgage, while usually a horribly bad financial move, allows many people to put nothing down on a house and make much smaller mortgage payments than you would expect on a McMansion somewhere in suburbia. We all know, too, how easy it is to get credit cards and charge them up to the max, if we're not careful. In other words, don't ever judge a book by its cover.</p>
<p>Sally, I do not intend to judge a book by its cover. Obviously, the value of a home is not a perfect indicator of income. However, since one can easily also ascertain the mortgage amount online from OPR sources, it is not irrelevant as you suggest. In terms of number of attorneys in my very unscientific survey - 12. Do they share their tax returns with me? No, that would be crass. </p>
<p>In terms of what you typically find out there, I will look to recent data from NALP as you suggest. I will point to NALP's data from 8/2005 for first year associate salaries. The overall median is $100,000 as of last August according to this study. </p>
<p>The caveat I guess would be my implicit assumption of private practice and not government, minor corporate, or non-profit work. These numbers would bring the number down I would think. Of course IP law would bring them up markedly. Regardless, the overall median is $100k (six figures). Yes, many lawyers make less than $100k. But simply being at or above the median can hardly be considered "elite".</p>
<p>Entry-Level Lawyer Salaries Remarkably Stable
08-08-2005
NALP Survey Details Private Practice Compensation Ranges</p>
<p>NALP announces publication of its annual comprehensive survey of associate compensation, the 2005 Associate Salary Survey report. A total of 573 offices provided salary information as of April 1, 2005. With 17% of respondents representing firms of 50 or fewer lawyers and 30% representing firms of more than 500 lawyers, the survey report sheds valuable light on the breadth of salary differentials among employers of varying sizes.</p>
<p>The median salary for first-year associates ranged from $67,500 in firms of 2-25 attorneys to $125,000 in firms of more than 500 lawyers, with a first-year median for all participating firms of $100,000. A comparison with figures reported for the prior five years reveals that first-year salaries have remained stable in firms of 251 or more lawyers during this period, with a median of about $110,000. This is in sharp contrast to a 30% increase in the median from April 1999 to April 2000. In some major cities, such as Los Angeles and New York City, as well as the Silicon Valley area, the prevailing salary of $125,000 for first-year associates in large firms has remained unchanged since April 2000. Similar salary stability was last experienced a decade ago in the mid-nineties.</p>
<p>As expected, each year of associate experience brings several thousand dollars in increased compensation: median salaries for eighth-year associates ranged from $109,000 in small firms to $181,500 in the largest firms, with a median for all reporting firms of $145,000.</p>
<p>Scott, thank you for your reply. Once again, please don't think that I'm only passionate about money. I'm passionate about life, and I don't feel that one should only work work and work some more. If you read my posts, you will see that my biggest cocern is the amount of hours that attorneys must work to earn a living worhty of a law degree concidering everything that takes to be an attorney, in terms of money, time, and effort. Let me reiterate that I do believe in hard work, God knows I've had to work very hard to get where I am today, but I also believe that we only have this life and we should enjoy it to the fullest. I just don't see how one could do that if one has to work 70 or 80 hours a week. Let me explain why I refer to money: I want to know if sacrificing all the free time that I have in my current profession, by becoming an attorney, is worth it or not. If practicing law compensates the loss of free time, fine. If it does not, I couls have a problem with that. That's what I'm trying to figure out here. In law enforcement, sometimes our lifes are at risk, and there is no amount of money that can compensate that risk, but I enjoy it, it pays a decent salary, and I have plenty of TIME to enjoy life after work.</p>
<p>"The median salary for first-year associates ranged from $67,500 in firms of 2-25 attorneys to $125,000 in firms of more than 500 lawyers, with a first-year median for all participating firms of $100,000."</p>
<p>True, but if you read the entire study instead of just the press release, you will also find that the firms that respond are overwhelmingly skewed towards much larger firms that typically pay higher salaries. In addition, the biggest firms actually gave out raises across the board this year that will likely skew the median upwards again, but which, unfortunately, will still not reflect the actual practice of law in smaller firms and in smaller cities. Furthermore, the median salaries for lawyers working for the government or in public interest positions, employers many lawyers seek out trying to find a better work/life balance (not always found there, though), are much lower. </p>
<p>What I will tell the OP is that if you want to make the larger salaries, you are typically going to have to work for the bigger firms and work very long hours there. Perhaps after you work in a big firm for 5-6 years or more, you may then be able to find a job in house, for example, that will require fewer hours, but that, again, will pay a significantly lower salary. It's really up to you, the OP, to decide what monetary value you place on your free time. Yes, if you go and work in a big firm in a big city, you can make a lot of money as a lawyer (if you are fortunate enough to get those jobs). You will work long hours, sometimes travelling a lot, often working weekends and sometimes pulling all-nighters at work. Is that worth living in NYC, Chicago or LA and making $145,000 at a big firm to you? Only you can answer that question. Unfortunately, though, most other attorney jobs in smaller cities, for smaller law firms or for the government or in public interest positions will pay substantially less. No, you will probably not pull all-nighters at those jobs, but you will also not work only 40 hours a week either. </p>
<p>For example, I was on the phone just an hour or so ago with outside counsel (meaning he works for a law firm) for another company. This outside counsel works for a small firm where there is no one to cover for him in his absence. He called me from vacation on a tropical island with his wife and young son. He mentioned while he was on the phone today that he has been working no less than 5 hours a day to wrap up some preliminary matters so that the deal with my client can go through ever since he got to his vacation spot. He mentioned to me a week or so ago, before he left for vacation, how crazy it is that as a partner at his law firm he takes home less money than first year associates at big firms. That just sounds like a rotten deal to me, but such is a day in the life of many lawyers. </p>
<p>Just curious, too -- where does everyone get the idea that IP attorneys make so much more money than other attorneys? In big firms, everyone in every practice area is paid the same. Salaries go up only based upon your class year. I've found the same phenomenon in house, where attorneys are generally paid in accordance with their seniority rather than their practice area.</p>
<p>Sally, The IP comment was based on the NALP survey as well as my personal iteractions with members of an IP attorney in my high tech career. It is just a hot field right now due to the place it is at on the supply/demand curve.</p>
<p>Tronix, I think there are ways to make very good money in law, but Sally is very right to point out the quality of life issues involved due to the big-law skew factor of the salary studies. This is sadly true in ANY career path. My current path of high tech is no exception. Tenure is about the only savior in terms of both compensation and pace of life.</p>
<p>However, if one is younger and loves the idea of practicing law, then I say go for it, but do so with your eyes wide open as you are doing. You can make choices that will lead to realizing significant financial gains. You will likely need to lean toward a private firm as opposed to inside counsel, government, or non-profit. A growing area is in he area of entitlement law or conversely environmental law in rapidly developing metropolitan areas with environmentally sensitive eco-systems. This work is largely handled by smaller boutique firms and it pays generally well.</p>
<p>Think about your geographic preferences or limitations. Think about areas of law you would find interesting. Talk to attorneys in those fields with various levels of experience in various firms. Ask their advice. If you know the type of law you would want to practice already, then that makes it even easier to evaluate your options. </p>
<p>I wish you the best of luck with your decision as I am in the process of deciding to apply to LS as well or not.</p>
<p>If an individual has carefully considered the pro's and con's of a carrer change and would like to attempt law school is there a student age limit?</p>
<p>None that I know of? Sally? For what it is worth, I am forty and am strongly considering law school. The average age of a first year law student is probably around 25 at most schools, but non-traditional students are not unheard of. :)</p>
<p>Actually, I think that the average age of law students at the schools at which I actively recruited (Harvard, UVa, Penn, Stanford, Columbia, NYU) was older than 25. I believe that 25 was more likely to be the average age of an entering law student, making the average age overall something like 26 or 27. There are plenty of students in law school that came straight from college and there are plenty of students in law school who are working on their second or third careers. Plenty of law students are married and may or may not have children. Anecdotally, it was always my experience (and that of my colleagues and lawyer friends) that the students who were a bit more mature and who had worked out in the real world, on average, did better in law school. </p>
<p>One thing to consider as a 40-year old law student is what you would want to do after you graduate from law school. If you have designs on working in a law firm, there may be some concern expressed overtly to you or behind closed doors in recruiting committee meetings by the law firms that someone who is in their second career and who is 40 years old may have trouble taking direction and "marching orders" from someone younger but more experienced as a lawyer. You need to decide for yourself whether this would actually be a problem for you. If it is not, you would be well advised to address those kinds of concerns up front with potential employers.</p>