Agreed a week is not forever but STEP was much more than a camp, with long days and late nights focused on the task at hand. In fact my son was rejected with his 32 ACT but appealed when he bumped it to a 34. He also got 10k merit…very rare from Purdue after he applied for admission….not sure but STEP attendance may have helped because no one else he knows at home or Alabama that was admitted to Purdue got money.
It’s not school…I understand…but it is real hands on learning and for my son who waffled between aviation, atmospheric sciences, and astrophysics…it helped cement the path or even let him know, yes he’s going down the right path. So I wouldn’t minimize the impact or exposure for an undecided student. No, it won’t give them the academics, etc but it does let them know what engineers do and it gives them an engineering related project. Imagine showing up on day one of school and a week in realizing you made a mistake. This won’t necessarily eliminate that risk but it is another validator.
Here’s a list of non PhD engineering schools. As you go through the list you will see the LACs and smaller universities. Yes there are bigger ones too. You may need to keep hitting load more at the bottom.
These always crack me up. I’m certainly a Cal Poly fan and can be biased for sure, but click on the USNWR CP link. They are 7th overall and yet #2 in every category they rank. How is that possible?!? Specious is a pretty good description of USNWR.
Here’s what I noticed when I was a student at a smaller college (3000+) back in the day, where 40% of the students were engineers. Students could try out engineering first. If they liked it, they stuck with it. But if they didn’t like it they transferred into A&S or Business. And if they transferred into Science, for example, they were studying it in the LAC environment rather than at a large university.
In addition to the LACs which have been mentioned or which are on the list which have been linked, som smaller research universities offer a similar options. Tufts has been mentioned and is an example of such. Rice, Dartmouth, Rochester would be other examples of smaller research universities with strong liberal arts core.
I would remove Dartmouth. They offer no merit aid and their 4 year engineering program is not ABET accredited. Their ABET degree is 5 years. Rice might come in at budget though if the stars align. Lots to like. Ditto Wash U.
The fact that it’s not accredited might just be a plus. This is a student whose curious about engineering but not yet committed in that direction. The fact that it’s not ABET would likely give him more flexibility. He can always pursue a master’s if he wants the ABET accreditation IF he even decides to pursue engineering at all. The same advantages would hold true for the program at Washington & Lee.
Good point about their being no merit aid at Dartmouth. Although I probably should have been paying more attention to merit aid, I wasn’t so much trying to pick a college for him, I was more trying to give examples of smaller research universities with strong liberal arts cores but which also offer engineering, some places which would offer the same kind of experience as an LAC. I like your suggestion of Wash U.
Enjoy the journey this next year. You are asking great questions.
Help him find opportunities to investigate different careers to see what he may be interested in. Nothing needs to be set in stone, but having colleges with lots of options is best for undecided. As folks have said, it is easier to transfer out of engineering than into it sophomore year. So if kind of interested in engineering when applying, most would apply to engineering.
When you look at college tours, find some close by first and try to find days when colleges may be having more in-depth tours of different departments. (More common at less prestigious colleges but trust me, this helps). Even if it is not a school high on his list, being able to see research projects and course options helps them figure out if that major is something they really want to do. Have him look at required courses, flexibility, and where double majoring may be easier based on his varied interests. Most engineering programs leave little room for even minors, but other schools somehow build in more flexibility he may enjoy.
I married into a family of highly successful engineers and many friends are also in the field. All highly successful and definitely no fear of being outsourced. Our D is following her dad’s footsteps. She’s a chem E and will eventually get her MBA after working for a few years.
In terms of schools I agree that schools like Bucknell sound like a good fit.
I know it’s not D3 but schools like Norte Dame and Cornell
are schools where students don’t declare their major until second semester sophomore year. That gives students a lot of flexibility.
Also will second the suggestion of doing a summer program like Purdue’s STEP. It’s a condensed version of the first year engineering design course combined with company site visits, lab demos, etc…. It’s intense. My D came back exhausted and exhilarated, knowing for sure she was on the right track with engineering.
You are also one of the parents starting early for kid’s college process. We were like that, although we did not start the college list when our son was 16. We simply kept reading many books to understand the process. It was so good to start early. We were prepared well by our son was senior, although my son was not very motivated. He was very much enjoying coding for his robotic club, that’s what he wanted to do. For him, as long as he studied CS, he did not care about the college list, He was perfectly OK with the community college.
He ended up in a big university with the Engineering department.
Our second son, on the other hand, is an athlete. Like your son, he doesn’t know what he wants to study. He loves reading since he was a baby. He has a stock of knowledge and trivia. Sometimes he amazes me with his knowledge. I always though he should be in the debate team, but he quit in one year. He doesn’t discuss with parents, but he has his opinion about the social issues. He is inclining to major in English, but he is also open to social science, economics, data science, etc. He only knows that he doesn’t want to be an Engineer.
He also thinks he should go to a small liberal arts college. I agree that a student like him who doesn’t know what to study in college should consider LAC. There, he takes various classes, and discovers what is more interesting to him.
For some parents and kids, majors with high income forecast are important. I understand, but it is not the priority.
Medical doctor, for example, is high income, but you really really have to love doing it. Otherwise, you won’t survive with the life style they have. Similar to the high tech industry. You really have to have the passion.
This may be one of the most thorough threads addressing the OP’s original questions that I have read here on CC. I agree with all the advice given and here is our anecdotal evidence to add to it.
We have two Daughters who both did the engineering academy (Project Lead the Way) at their high school. First Daughter went to a college summer engineering program and that along with the academy cemented her interest. She only applied to state flagships in the south and chose UF. Graduated Magna Cum Laude in Civil Engineering and has a great start in her career and for now, loves what she is doing. Second Daughter has done 3 different summer academic programs and multiple summer sports camps. She is a 3 sport varsity athlete and based on her academic experience she has initially decided to pursue Mechanical Engineering and maybe a MS in Aerospace. Remember, I said, initially as I could her shifting around as she goes deeper into it. She is pursuing options to play either Varsity or Club in college, but similar problem that few D3 schools have engineering. As of right now, she has been accepted at Mines, Rose, Auburn (Honors), Clemson and UCF (Honors) all offering Merit scholarships. The reason for so many applications can be found in exactly the struggle you describe your son will have if goes down a similar path. She is torn on the small STEM school maybe play varsity vs big state flagship maybe play club debate, etc. etc. Also, she is doing Robotics and Computer Science AP in her Senior year and that may sway her thinking in terms of schools.
As a sidebar, I can affirm that Engineering undergrads are the most sought after students when applying to Graduate Business and Law schools, so if they want to expand upon or pivot in their career after a few years they have options.
All that said, as previously suggested maybe he try one or more of the summer programs others have listed, continue to enjoy his sports and attempt to look at both the small LAC schools with Engineering as well as a few state flagships, especially those that would provide merit (he has the stats to get it). We never pushed our daughters too hard, but we did suggest options and supported whatever they wanted to pursue.
I am sure you are proud of him, he has a problem (aka Opportunity) many young people would like to have.
I really like this post because the list that is linked includes a number of moderately sized colleges which are neither “bigger schools” nor pure LACs. They typically do not offer PhD’s but they do offer multiple undergrad schools, i.e. A&S, Engineering, Business, Education, Nursing, etc. Like small LACs, they are focused on undergraduate education, are student focused, and have smaller classes. The Engineering School at these colleges will tend to have the students with the highest test scores in the entire college.
I bring this up because the family budget for college is $50K per year. Since these colleges tend to have higher acceptance rates than the top LACs and the top research universities, these are where a the “tippy top” son of the OP is almost guaranteed to find merit aid.
Look past the top of the list which features the Rose-Hulmans and Harvey Mudds of the world and past the military academies. In the top 50 are some very fine undergraduate colleges which provide multiple option for their students at schools with moderately sized enrollments. Here are some examples with undergrad enrollment in parentheses:
Would he consider continuing his sport through club teams? Not sure which sport, but when D20 (swimming) was deciding between Varsity at smaller schools or Club at larger D1 engineering (MechE) schools, she contacted the club teams ahead of time and actually practiced with the teams when we visited the schools. The club teams at D1s can be quite competitive; they practice, travel and have championships… it may open up more options.
One thing I’ve learned is some kids think they are D3 for sports. Yet D3 is still insanely competitive. So while I’m not an expert on d3 recruitment, from the families I know, sports participation should not be presumed. I know several kids who were given guidance, even by coaches that they were good enough, who ultimately were not offered a spot.
Perhaps the student needs to start reaching out to coaches, etc? I’m sure others can guide on that.
What I’m wondering is…if sports were not possible…would the mindset of small school change?
If so, it might be fine to reach out to some of the d3 coaches on the list….or however this process should start (others can help here).
Thanks again to all who have weighed in. There is so much good advice and collective expertise here that I hope this thread will remain active and be useful to others as well.
OK, as promised, I’m back with his YouScience results. The ‘recommended careers’ were mainly a list of every single flavor of engineer I’d ever heard of and several I hadn’t (photonics engineer? Had to look that one up!). For fun, some of the non-engineer recs were: archaeologist (he did love to dig in the dirt when he was little), medical scientist, and architect. But mostly: engineer after engineer after engineer.
Also, I second the rec for YouScience for any other parents following this thread. He has done several of these career-fit tests through school but said this one was completely different: much longer and more complex and with several challenging tests and puzzles. Well worth $30.
So, now we’re off to research LACs with engineering + merit $ + a decent-but-not-too-fast D3 team. (Fortunately, his sport is time-based so it’s relatively easy to figure out where he’d make the cut). And, of course, we’ll keep the club-sport-at-the-state-flagship plan as a backup.
One more question for the group in the meantime. I’m starting to think that another good path may be to send him to whichever LAC is the best combined ‘fit’ for a strong physics dept + merit $ + his sport and then tentatively plan on doing him engineering as his master’s. He’d have plenty of 529 $ left over for it if he chased serious merit, and that way he could have the full 4-year LAC experience with a well-rounded education and plenty of time to do his sport and a study abroad, etc. This is a kid who I recently caught reading Shakespeare ‘just for fun’. He would absolutely love a LAC education. And then he’d be making the decision about engineering as a 21 year old rather than as a 17 year old, yet could still graduate debt-free with a M.S. by age 23 (he’s very young for his grade). All of these seem like very good things!
So, to finally get to my question(s): How is a M.S. in engineering regarded? Do top firms recruit and ‘intern’ master’s students, or are they considered to be not as serious/smart as the B.S’s who went straight through? (Pardon my general bias against master’s degrees from the world of academia here ).
MS in engineering is VERY different than other academic tracks. For most disciplines, you get a MS when you don’t pass qualifying exams and wash out of your PhD. It’s not that way in engineering. A MS is a way to deepen technical expertise without narrowing with a PhD. It comes with a bump in pay and broader attractiveness in the job market. Our son finished a BS and thesis based MS in ME just after his 23rd birthday. He walked debt free. It was an enviable position to be in.
The issue with switching from Physics to Engineering is that there might be some backfilling. He’s way ahead though, so that won’t be a big issue for him should he choose that route.
Perfect. Thank you. You knew exactly what I meant. Great to know that this would be a viable path in case he can’t find the right fit for engineering schools as an undergrad.
But for now, off to cross-reference the list of D3 engineering schools, the Fiske guide, and recruiting portal (S23’s jobs), and the Common Data Sets (my job). He’s responsible for the general college and athlete ‘fit’ parts and I run the $s.
(PSA for anyone lurking on this thread: The Common Data Sets are the best way to figure out how much merit $ schools actually provide, and at what stats. I’m already an expert on that from my last rodeo with D21. Read my previous posts or PM me if you want to learn more.)
This is not an absolute, but MS is generally the pinnacle for practicing engineers. PhDs are typically for research or very highly specialized industry jobs that require even more training.
I would strongly recommend Michelle’s spreadsheets. It’s al public info, but organized in a very searchable way. Her area of expertise is athletic scholarships.
Most people want “enough” income. What “enough” is depends on the person, mainly in terms of their spending habits and what margin of safety they are looking for. Someone who can live on $20k per year will find that “enough” income is smaller than someone who “needs” $200k per year. The person who can live on $20k per year therefore has a wider range of suitable career choices that produce “enough” income.
Note that educational debt can increase what “enough” income is. For example, MDs often have $400k debt after medical school. They may need a higher income to pay off the debt than someone who had $27k or $0 debt after a bachelor’s degree, if they have similar spending habits.
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