Career paths that are, or have become, elite-or-bust

@ucbalumnus, we will be entering a world in which academia is even more winner-take-all than it is now. The economics of higher education does not work as the cost of on-campus education has grown much more rapidly than family incomes. Hence, most school now price-discriminate. They charge a high sticker price but give a discount based upon assessed ability to pay. So the actual price is much lower than the sticker price. But, even the lower actual price has become unsustainable. Harvard and MIT and Amherst and Stanford will be fine, but many lesser schools will need to either augment their on-campus education with remote education. I was just talking with someone from SNHU. Their online classes make all of their money but they are taught with non-scholar instructors. They have a different group of professors with PhDs who teach the on-campus classes. My guess is that schools will have to simultaneously teach hybrid courses ā€“ some students on campus and others remote (with lower tuition). Those that do this can capture significant economies of scale and can stay in business. Those that donā€™t probably close.

Even there, we have a friend who is an extraordinary teacher. One of the best teachers Iā€™ve ever seen (who also happens to be a world-famous researcher). He is creating an online version of his freshman science course (funded by a foundation) and a textbook. All will be free. It will be better than almost every equivalent class at every school in the world. And it will be free (or nearly so, I would guess). This will cut jobs needed. Professors or TAs can go over the problem sets with them, but you wonā€™t need a professor at all to lecture. You can be that the compensation for these professors will not be nearly as attractive at major research schools (or for the great pedagogues). So the number of jobs will go down because schools will close and because we can use the lectures of incredibly good teachers instead of the prof who happens to work at your school.

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I was going to mention that article. Also, the rise of the useless class is a major theme here.

Interesting concept of ā€œcounter-elitesā€ basically as members of the class who may have suffered some loss of status. But, do all of them have to be bomb-throwers? What about FDR (who was often accused of being a traitor to his class?) Canā€™t counter-elites be decent, emotionally mature, non-crack-pots?

The stratification is between docs who do procedures and docs who donā€™t. Procedure docs: Surgeons, ENTs, dermatologists, OB/GYNs, ophthalmologists, gastroenterologists, urologists. Non-procedure docs: Pediatricians, internists, neurologists, rheumatologists, infectious disease docs, psychiatrists, nephrologists.

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Iā€™m sorry if I didnā€™t convey my point properly. It wasnā€™t any sort of nostalgia for the 50s and 60s but rather pointing out why a college education has become necessary AND YET will not guarantee a ā€œgood jobā€. No one who graduated HS in the 21st century has been able to get a ā€œgood jobā€ that I know of (save for extremely lucky, extremely exceptional individuals like those NBA stars or CS geniuses, one in a million).
As a result, those looking for ā€œgood jobsā€ (relatively stable, well-paid, with benefits) have tried to look at college as a way to ease their path toward something that is no longer a norm [even if many used to be excluded from it], but an exception [for all].

Returning to the first question:
ā€œElite or bustā€ also applies to lots of Humanities majors: English at a top 40 university/LAC is going to be vastly different from English at a directional because the level of writing, sophistication in reading and discussion, will be at very different levels among peers (which are essential in Humanities). Networking and career centers that can direct these students toward internships, alumni networks that value their skills, also matter a lot more than for ā€œprofessionsā€ such as teaching, nursing, or engineering, where the degree is linked to a specific job and which are therefore easier to cater to for a career center.

Foreign Language will be almost unrecognizable depending on the college (ie., at top colleges, it focuses on intercultural analysis, literature, etc. At a lot of small colleges most of the teaching is dedicated to learning the language; whereas AP may be the basic default prep for a 1st year course at some colleges, it grants 2 full years elsewhere, so that a very advanced student may have few or no choices among ā€œlocalā€ colleges that offer ā€œpost-APā€ level classes infrequently.)

The same issue applies to math: for a very advanced Math student, who completed more than Calc 2 in HS +probably MVC and Linear Algebra, who wants to major in Math: there may be no ā€œlocalā€ choice - a local CC mostly offered PreAlgebra through Precalculus, for instance. The further from most/highly selective colleges you go, the more you find ā€œMath for teachingā€ majors and the rarer the distinction between ā€œPure Mathā€, ā€œApplied Mathā€, ā€œMath+CSā€, ā€œStatisticsā€ā€¦ becomes. The problem is especially compounded for math since PHD Math programs are quite snobbish and top Math programs may not accept anyone from a ā€œnon topā€ Math program; even ā€œtopā€ colleges may not be found sufficient if their own Math Dept is not highly considered by the PHD professors.

Machine learning as an undergraduate concentration only seems to be offered at elite colleges (perhaps because their math/CS students often seem to have completed more than the normal HS curriculum and can thus start one or two years early what others may only get to at the Masterā€™s level?)

That being said, the Stateā€™s Flagship will usually give an advantage within the State (or even regionally if the flagship is strong enough).

What colleges offer foreign language courses but none which are suitable for actual beginners in that language (i.e. where students are expected to have reached AP level in high school in that language before taking the ā€œbeginnerā€ course in that language)?

All colleges offer ā€œbeginnerā€ courses. Thatā€™s not the issue.

This is the the ā€œelite or bustā€ thread, though: the case for a student who wants to major in a foreign language &has reached AP (or even post AP) level in that Foreign Language to attend a college where having an AP in that language is a common enough situation that the path for freshmen is clearly delineated makes more sense than attending a college where theyā€™ve maxed out on the collegeā€™s offerings before they even enter.
Is that common? Yes, quite common, especially if the language is not Spanish, French, or German, and even these 2 may max out at what would be AP level, outside of flagships and relatively selective (not just ā€œeliteā€ but definitely highly selective) colleges.
For instance, compare University of Illinois Springfield and SIU Carbondale with UIUC, Elmhurst, Illinois College, and Roosevelt with UChicago and Northwestern.
(This also applies for the math major - when are proof-based courses offered? Are they offered at all?)

For someone who wants to reach a high level of proficiency, which requires lots of cultural knowledge, it would be ā€œelite or bustā€ (or at least ā€œrelatively selective or bustā€).
Same thing for math.

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Ah yes, Peter Turchin. Heā€™s been doom and gloom as long as Iā€™ve known him.

I would respectfully disagree. Alone a language is fairly useless as a career ( outside of translation and trachibg). In combination with real job skills and a couple of languages needed for a role and you become indispensable. The only people who think google translate works donā€™t understand the other language. You would totally embarrass yourself. Even AI canā€™t translate languages yet.
There is also a whole subset of folks in many global roles who translate not only words but cultural norma and make sure it makes sense to speakers in another country. Even in the same language, English many words donā€™t ā€œtranslateā€
People often think language is one for one. Itā€™s not. Some ideas exist in only one lamguage.

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It will be hard to respond well without getting too technical and also kidnapping the thread but Iā€™ll try.
Translation has been my profession for close to 30 years, and I consider myself fairly successful and skillful. And I have to tell you, Google Cloud Translation API within a computer-assisted translation memory programs (SLD Studio and Memoq are good examples) got scarily good, especially when you translate into English, and the text is fairly standard, like a hospital discharge report, or an employment contract. And it gets better and better every day because it learns with each sentence suggested by Google and corrected by the human user. Sure, it wonā€™t translate poetry or the next antiproliferation treaty but this is exactly my point - 20 years ago, there was a lot of work for tens of thousands of diligent, mediocre professionals. In 10 years, only hundreds of those with top skills will fine-tune computer output or shadow heads of states.
BTW, professional translation worth its name always conveys cultural norms and concepts, as opposed to just words.

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Since you are speaking specifically about pure language jobs. Iā€™d agree that technology plays a role in reducing the numbers and skill needed for many translation jobs. Though the world is global and book translation, marketing translation etc isnā€™t a one for one. From the original post, I thought you were speaking more broadly about jobs which encompass the need to speak multiple or even a single second language fluently.
I think language skills are a unique way to position yourself as the right candidate. Talk about standing out when a client needs a basic skill like marketing and also that the person be fluent in say French and Farsi.

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@Happytimes2001 Exactly. Thatā€™s why we have always nourished our daughterā€™s very impressive language talents but never thought weā€™d take over our translation business :wink:

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yeah, his whole theory seems to rest on the observation that elites become overpopulated (which is itself counterintuitive) and members begin to break off and become antagonistic to the ruling class. His solution is to cut back on the size of the elite class. One interesting suggestion is to cut back on the amount of ā€œcertificationā€ in the college process, i.e., the degree to which colleges and universities design their curriculums to match the needs and wants of industry. That too, is against the prevailing wisdom. So, Iā€™m both intrigued and skeptical at the same time.

His training is population ecology, and heā€™s a Russian. The first pushes him to develop theories in which biological and physical forces are more powerful than cultural ones (since those are the ones heā€™s studied for years), and being Russian (and the son of a dissident) also drives his vision of the place of education and the relationship between the Intelligentsia, the wealthy ruling class, and the ā€œmassesā€.

He is an interesting person, overall.

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In the medicine vein I will add veterinarians. To get into vet school you have to to very well in undergraduate school and have the contacts/luck to get good experience as an undergraduate. This does not need to be at a ā€œtopā€ school. Then in vet school you have to have the money to pay for it or go into huge debt (a bigger issue than in med school because vets make far less money than doctors but education costs are similar). You can do ok in vet school and go straight into GP. But to get to the elite vet jobs you need to go on to internships and residencies. These are low paid and only take the students with elite grades, skills or experience from vet school (or get very lucky). The top residency programs in vet school take the top students (not just from Cornell or UC Davis but from any established vet school). My S was told that to have the best chance to get into a top surgery residency he needs to be the top 5% of his class, get research experience and get published while he is in vet school. That does take elite skills.

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Maybe it really is more like members of the elite class compete against each other, with some winners becoming even more elite within the elite class, while others get pushed out. Those getting pushed out obviously do not like it.

But then the same can be said for other classes ā€“ when people see upward mobility for themselves and their kids, they feel satisfied. But when they see downward mobility or limitations on opportunity for themselves and their kids, they feel grievance. Economic trends in the US are that gains from economic growth are becoming more concentrated to capital rather than labor; since capital is mostly owned or controlled by the upper classes, that means that the share of the economy for everyone else is not growing by much, resulting in a more competitive zero-sum (or negative-sum) situation (including more elite-or-bust situations), leading to fewer opportunities, less satisfaction, and more grievance.

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Would have to say that most of academia - assuming any result other than tenure at a top 100 or better institution is ā€œbustā€ - definitely qualifies as elite or bust. In most fields you have to make a top 10 phd program to have a >50% chance of a tenure track position at ā€œanyā€ school, and a top 3 phd program to have a >50% chance at a tenure track position at a top 100.

I am not interested in outing her, but long time CC members will remember a prolific former CC poster who received a biology undergrad from a HYPSM who then went to get a PhD in a neuroscience related field from another HYPSM.

Since then she has published 4 articles in Science and Cell, two of the most reputed journals out there. She is now in her mid 30s and has held a couple of adjunct faculty positions and is now working on her second post-doc. No tenure track positions to date.

I remember her because my daughter was once deeply interested in neuroscience and I used her as a cautionary tale of how brutal the academic side of research really is.

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Like almost everything else, tenure track positions are determined by supply and demand (along with some politics). Thereā€™re lots of published articles in prestigious journals every year and thereā€™re only so many tenure track positions at research institutions. Thereā€™s one exception, however, in the field of computer science, at least for the time being. Thereā€™re many open CS faculty positions that are on the tenure track, due to the incredible demand from students and competitions with industries for talents.

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There are also many tenure track positions for professors of nursing. This does not help the biochemists, historians, linguists, biologists, or civil engineers one iota!