Carleton and Macalester

Parents Forum
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<p>I am interested in information about these two colleges--in and of themselves and how they compare to each other. I have heard great things about both and some people like one and not the other, and vice versa. </p>

<p>The reason I'm asking is that we will be in Minnesota this summer and I thought doing one college tour while there might be a good idea. It's too early to know if these will be choices for daughters in a few years--it's more just to set foot on a liberal arts college campus so that they can get a bit of the feel. Girls' interests are wide and varied right now--community service, club sports, writing, dance, psychology.....thanks in advance.</p>

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<p>Patient - </p>

<p>I live in Minnesota and know many grads from both schools. Good friends of mine have students graduating F both schools this May. </p>

<p>In terms of basic academics the schools are very close. I'd give Carleton the edge in math, computer science and maybe English; Mac the edge in political science, international studies and maybe theatre. Flip a coin for other interests. </p>

<p>The student bodies are more similar now than they have been historically, but you will still find more question-authority types at Macalester and more traditional, career-oriented students at Carleton. Big difference in environment though, with Macalester in a pleasant urban area and Carleton in a cute small town.</p>

<p>Visits would be best during the school year, of course, but no reason not to visit in the summer. While in Northfield you may as well visit St. Olaf, too, which is a solid school across the board and very good in music, biology and math.</p>

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<p>My daughter and I intend to visit both at the end of May. Both look quite interesting and suit her interests. Looks like Mac has more tunnels and walkways connecting buildings, which is probably a bonus to my I-hate-cold-but-I'll-deal-with-it-if-that's-where-I-go daughter.</p>

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<p>Carleton is the alma mater of my paternal grandfather and another relative of mine. I agree with reidm's characterization of the relative strong programs at Carleton and Macalester. Carleton is especially strong in sciences, in part, because it has consortium arrangements with St. Olaf (in the same town of Northfield, MN) which has long been an LAC with a strong science emphasis. I was very impressed by Carleton's library (second only to the U of MN in math holdings, I think, in the state) when I visited it two years ago. </p>

<p>The surroundings of the two schools are very different. Macalester is hard up against arterial city streets of St. Paul, while Carleton is on a hilltop campus off to one side of the town center of Northfield. A lot of the other young people in that part of St. Paul are students at other colleges, or not students at all, while most of the other young people in Northfield are Carleton students, St. Olaf students, or a rather small contingent of townies. I THINK that Carleton has the number-one reputation for academic selectivity among Minnesota colleges, but I don't know if the stats bear out that impression. </p>

<p>I have to tell everyone the famous story about a Carleton alumnus boosting his school's reputation. Decades ago, some Carleton alum got a job at the Wall Street Journal newspaper, eventually becoming an editor. Thereafter, whenever ANY story in the Wall Street Journal made incidental mention of Carleton college, he would always insist that the name of the school be preceded by the phrase "highly regarded," or so the story goes. :) How highly you regard it after a visit is up to you.</p>

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<p>Thanks! My first reaction is to perhaps look at Carleton and St. Olaf's--since this is simply for the "this is an example of what a small liberal arts college feels like" experience primarily. Appreciate the input!</p>

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<p>One big difference is the huge international emphasis at Macalester. They have the second highest percentage of international students of any top liberal arts college (Mount Holyoke is first). Heavy emphasis on languages and junior year abroad - of course, JYA also exists at Carleton, but not as heavily emphasized. The student body at Macalester is substantially more economically diverse (which is surprising, given that Carleton's endowment is much larger.)</p>

<p>Don't write off St. Olaf's either. For many students, it is better than both of them (starting with those heavy into music, and future science Ph.D. productivity at St. Olaf's is higher than at either of the two other places.)</p>

<p>You can hardly go wrong with any of them.</p>

<p>(P.S. If you want to see the results of global warming, go to the Carleton website, and you'll see dozens of pictures of kid walking around in shorts and tee-shirts, sunning themselves or lying under the trees, with hardly a snowflake to found!)</p>

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<p>D, from Pac NW, is Carleton class of 08. It has an extremely rigorous academic focus. The trimester calendar is constructed so that students take 3 courses every 10 weeks. A ten week course = 15 week semester course. A student needs a waiver to take more than 3. 36 courses over four years. Senior comps (like most selective LAC's) are required for every major. D chose Carleton for its overall academic strength, particularly in the natural sciences, and the flavor she picked up from its passionate students (quirky, nerdy, sporty, dedicated, involved, HAPPY). She sought out a small student body (1900), while also wanting a spacious campus. She and the school fit together like a glove. Math and chemistry department chairs have been her advisors since day one. She has very little time to call or email. I keep up with her activities by checking her away messages on IM.</p>

<p>Both are excellent schools. tokenadult describes Macalester's location very well. It's campus is quite compact, probably only covering the equivalent of in length of 3 city blocks, not including the dorm area and athletic facilities. D felt claustrophobic there.</p>

<p>I second (or third?) the suggestion to also visit St. Olaf. It is a large LAC with 3000 students, affiliated with the Lutheran Church, and is located a bit further from the cute downtown area. Choral program is well-known, and their math department is top-notch. I'm attending a statistics workshop there next week.</p>

<p>Carleton is much more selective than either of the other schools</p>

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<p>patient -</p>

<p>Depending on how you're getting to Minnesota (driving?), I would also suggest a visit to Grinnell (Iowa). I think that Carleton and Grinnell are two top LACs that compare favorably with each other.</p>

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<p>Yes, I know someone who graduated from Grinnell a few years ago and learned a lot about it from her--she was very happy with her experience there and now is a Ph.D. candidate in a science here in California. I will be there just for a few days to drop off girls at camp, so that's why I'm just thinking one college (or two close by, as suggested above) is all that makes sense right now--girls will be incoming 10th graders only. For someone whose son's first college visit was in October of senior year, I am definitely ahead of my game!</p>

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<p>Carleton was my first choice (accepted ED), with Macalester being a close second. Both of these schools had amazing programs in the fields I'm interested in [English, Political Science/International Relations, Religious Studies, Foreign Languages]. The obvious difference between them is location, with Mac in the Macalester-Grove neighborhood of St. Paul and Carleton in population 17,000 Northfield, about 45 minutes south of Minneapolis and 25-30 minutes south of suburbia. I'll reiterate that Macalester heavily focuses on internationalism, as their claim to fame is that Kofi Annan [UN General Secretary] graduated from Mac, and Mac continues to fly the UN flag under the star spangled banner. Mac also encourages direct-enroll study abroad i.e. one withdraws from Macalester for a semester or a year and applies to a school abroad [Paris University of Political Science, Oxford, Heidelburg, etc.]. Macalester has an uber-liberal student body with a highly-active group of Campus Greens [Ralph Nader was there on my second visit in September 2004]. If your daughter is a soccer player/fan, Macalester has one of the best girls' soccer team in Div. 3. Macalester also had the most diverse and best food in all of my college visits. However, on the contrary to reidm, I found Macalester to be more "career-oriented," especially in the sciences and economics programs. Macalester is in a consortium with St. Catherine's, St. Thomas, Hamline, and the U of M [I think...].</p>

<p>Carleton was similar to Macalester in many ways, but also quite different in other aspects. Academically, I found that Carleton had stronger programs in Political Science than Mac [even though Mac is a slightly more politically active school]. I also found Carleton, although slightly less diverse, to emphasize internationalism even more so that Macalester, with diversity requirements and fantastic language programs, especially in Chinese and Japanese [but also Spanish and French, German, Hebrew]. Carleton was also on a trimester schedule, allowing students to focus on only three classes for a 10-week term opposed to four classes in a 15-week term at Macalester [also allowing Carleton students to take 9 classes per year vs. 8 at Macalester]. Carleton ranks 5th in colleges of students eventually receiving a Ph.D, and has a strong psychology program. Carleton seemed to be more extracurricular-focused, with a better school newspaper, very high participation in student government/social organizations, theater, and intramural sports. Geographically, the town of Northfield is quaint [dare I say "hip?"] with a focus on independent, locally-owned stores. Being in a smaller town, in my opinion, leads to higher student unity on the campus, whereas having two cities for Macalester students to explore made the college more clique-ish. Politically liberal as well, Carleton students recently opened the Wellstone House of Activism [named after recently passed away MN-Democrat and Carleton graduate U.S. Senator Paul Wellstone]. Carleton also has ACT, which places 70-some percent of Carleton students in volunteer environments around southern Minnesota. As stated, Carleton students can take classes at St. Olaf, about a mile and a half from the Carleton campus.</p>

<p>Both the campuses are similar, and Carleton and Macalester share many applicants. City dwellers tend to choose Macalester, while those looking for a close and friendly Midwestern community of students choose Carleton. Both have foreign language/interest houses, passionate professors, and strong academics. It just depends on what kind of atmosphere and activities your daughter prefers.</p>

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<p>Macalester is more heavily female percentage-wise. Carleton is a little more balanced in the male/female ratio. We loved them both, but daughter found a better fit closer to home, and the Carleton trimester schedule was going to be difficult to deal with in terms of home employment. (Our Texas schools start mid-August. If you want most summer jobs, you have to be available by end of May.) Mac food seemed to have a better rep than Carletons, and the Mac dining hall was truly beautiful. If you visit Mac, see if you can stay in the Alumni house on campus. Inexpensive, and a cool house with a student staff.</p>

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<p>Both these schools were among my daughter's leading choices, though in the end she elected to go elsewhere.</p>

<p>Surprisingly, given MacAlester's advertised emphasis on internationalism, she found that to continue studies in her chosen foreign language at a high level she would have to take courses at U Minnesota. Also, a glance at the catalog gave us the impression that there were more part-time professors there than elsewhere she was applying to. So these are two things you may want to investigate.</p>

<p>Carleton seemed great; my wife's first choice. My daughter decided it was too cold, and an unusually high percentage of the kids were into intramural sports (she isn't).</p>

<p>Both great schools though, for someone with even minimally different priorities and academic interests.</p>

<p>FWIW, as for similar schools, my daughter chose Oberlin.</p>

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<p>monydad - that's funny that your Oberlin D decided Carleton was too cold. My Carleton D did an overnight in February at Oberlin (her junior year) when the temps plummeted and they had an unusual ice/snow storm that stuck us there for an extra day. She said it was too cold for her in Ohio. Yes- definitely similar schools, including the cold. ;)</p>

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<p>I was surprised by that as well. As an ohioan, I was just thinking, is Minnesota really that much colder.</p>

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<p>For my California kids, this will always be an issue. Each time we walk outside in flip flops in February (even though we may have jackets on too), I do point out that this will not be possible in most parts of the country. This is just truth in advertising mind you, not a pitch to stay close to mama ;)</p>

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<p>oh patient, #1 on D's location requirements was to get as far away from mama as she could. :D</p>

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<p>Yes, on my two too, I promise you!! Just that they may have to struggle with competing priorities :)</p>

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<p>One reason you might want to include St. Olaf - even if only for a drive by - is that it is larger than the typical LAC. St. Olaf has 3,000 students while Macalester and Carleton are both much, much smaller. I continue to believe that St. Olaf's international study abroad programs are among the top in the nation - some truly amazing opportunities there and many kids study abroad more than once, something you don't find elsewhere.</p>

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<p>While I think we southerners can understand the temperature (you're cold at zero degrees ANYWHERE), it's the length of winter that is hard to grasp. Everything is in bloom in early March here. When does winter end in the northern states?</p>

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<p>well here in Ohio it depends from year to year. For example, it was below freezing for a month, than it let up a little, than it got blazingly cold once again, now it's starting to get a little warmer, but it'll probably dip back down once again</p>