Carleton for Physics?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Carleton College
1

<p>I was accepted into Carleton, and have been interested in going to it for a while. However, I'm more into math and science--specifically, physics. I know for a fact I want to major in physics, possible major or minor in mathematics as well. Indeed, I love both physics and math dearly. I don't hate liberal arts, like polisci or philosophy--rather, I am virtually clueless on what they are all about, but am interested in learning. I'm not sure if this would provide me with too much of a challenge--i.e., because of Carleton's requirements, would I just die at the overload of non-sciencey classes?</p>

<p>But I digress. What appeals to me about Carleton is the general geeky, carefree atmosphere combined with rigorous academics. I've heard it's a beautiful campus and a generally great environment, conducive to learning. What I'm unsure of is how well it would prepare me to go on to graduate school for Physics. I would especially like to go to a great graduate for physics. Specifically, I would really love to participate in some research programs throughout my college life. Eventually, I want to get a PhD in physics and get involved in serious scientific research, either as a professor or simply a research scientist, or both. So, really, I want the best college or university to prepare me for such. Yet I also want that geeky atmosphere at Carleton.</p>

<p>First off, I'm not sure what the research programs are like at Carleton. I've also been accepted to Cornell, I have heard that the professors there are involved in serious research and publishing. A friend who goes to Cornell claims that I'd have numerous opportunities to get involved in such research, even when I'm a freshman. I understand that Carleton is a smaller school, and probably (I do not know if this is actually true) doesn't have the same quantity of physics "equipment" as a larger university like Cornell would have. Plus, I understand that Carleton takes pride in the fact that most of its professors aren't involved in serious research, being full time professors instead. There are more "big names" in Physics at Cornell, I would imagine (how big, I'm not sure).</p>

<p>SO IN SUMMARY
So, really, it comes down to this: what are the physics research programs at Carleton like? Would they suit my needs for undergraduate research? I'd really like to have that sort of experience as an undergraduate.</p>

<p>Sincerely,
Steve Wolf</p>

2

<p>My mom is dean at a great liberal arts college, so I really understand the benefits of a LA education. Research does go on, especially at a place like Carleton known for its science programs, and it is MUCH easier for students to get involved than at a big university. There will be a significantly smaller number of physics majors, so that would give you many more opportunities to get very involved in the program. For a research project, a professor will have a small group of students eager to get involved rather than a vast number, including graduate students. Carleton is one of the best, if not the best, LAC for sciences. I would strongly recommend it over a huge place like Cornell, where it would be easy to disappear in the swarms of physics majors. But of course, I am a little biased.</p>

3

<p>What about the fact that, at Cornell, I'd be interacting with more professors, or at least more professors that actually are in the field of research, publishing stuff?</p>

4

<p>I am not exactly sure about the research oppurtunities though I do know there are some summer research oppurtunies and I know there is research that goes on but unfortunetely being a social science perosn I have not looked into them much myself. However, though proffesors are full time profs here that does not mean that they are not conducting research and publishing work. Also as Car137 said there are a lot less physics people to compete with for oppurtunities than a school like Cornell where not only are there much more undergraduates to compete with but also graduate students. As far as going on to grad school for physics, this I can give you a better answer for. There are a good number of physics majors here at Carleton and most go on to graduate school to continue study in the field. So I can tell you that the Carleton physics department will prepare you for graduate work.</p>

5

<p>I'm not sure you would be interacting with more professors at Cornell. I mean, you will be in gigantic classes where the professor does not know your name and is much less approachable than at a college, where you will really get to know the professors.</p>

6

<p>Ah, there's the rub. I heard from one of my Cornell friends that you can just email a professor early and say, "Hey, I want some research work." and usually if you're a frosh, she'll just put you to work doing things like cleaning equipment or whatever. And you can easily get acquainted with professors this way, and make it that much more easier to compete later on for serious research. And at least that way, you can get experience around the lab first, before doing real research.</p>

<p>At least, that's what shes says, but she's a ChemE major, and a freshman at that. I'm gonna contact someone in physics at Cornell and see how true this is.</p>

<p>At any rate, it seems like such an experience would be good, and I would really like some specific details about what kinds of research is done, how many people do it, &c. It would seem that Cornell would have a wider variety of areas to choose from: more physics professors == more opportunities.</p>

<p>Anyway, some facts and more persuasion would be helpful</p>

7

<p>You can get a good idea of the opportunities available to Carleton physics students (as well as students in any other department) by reading the online departmental newsletter. For physics, the newsletter is called Radiations and can be viewed at <a href="http://apps.carleton.edu/curricular/physics/news/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://apps.carleton.edu/curricular/physics/news/&lt;/a>. The newsletters list things like research opportunities as well as external internships and REUs, departmental talks, post-grad stuff, and special events. I would encourage you to look through back issues of Radiations to see if Carleton has what you're looking for as far as physics goes. I can tell you at least that the quality of physics instruction here is great (having dabbled in a couple of physics classes myself). If you get a research position in the physics department over the summer or as an independent study during the year, it will probably be as a rising junior or senior unless you've managed to take a lot of physics classes early in your Carleton career, and you will NOT be just cleaning equipment--those kinds of department assistant jobs are work-study positions, not research. I also know that pretty much all of the physics majors who intend to go to grad school in physics did research at Carleton or through an REU at some point, and so if that's in your future, if you want it, it's there. The department knows that people seriously looking at grad school need research experience and will hold your hand in trying to find it if you let them know that's what you're after.</p>

<p>As far as not being a liberal artsy person goes, I feel you there. I'm a math person, always have been, and I came to Carleton knowing I wanted to major in math and never changed my mind. Believe me, if you don't want to take too many non-sciencey classes, nobody is going to make you because the distribution requirements are pretty softbatch. I'm technically one class away from finishing the math major requirements (aside from the comprehensive project) and I'm only a sophomore, but I'm still also one class away from finishing my distribution requirements. I feel like I have a good personal balance of classes I'm supercomfortable in like math/physics/CS and then more liberal artsy classes, it's easy to do that here with the whole 3 classes/3 terms setup.</p>

<p>All in all I encourage you to visit before choosing where to go if that is an option for you, and definitely go to the physics department office (top floor of Olin Hall) and see if there are any profs holding office hours who can give you information about research in physics at Carleton.</p>

8

<p>Visiting would be an option if time/money permitted. Alas, it's time for AP crackdowns.</p>

<p>I shall look into that sorta info, and compare it to Carleton's.</p>

<p>One more question: What's the physics major student : physics professor ratio?</p>

9

<p>
[quote]
It would seem that Cornell would have a wider variety of areas to choose from: more physics professors == more opportunities.

[/quote]
Take a look at [url=<a href="http://www.physics.cornell.edu/physics/people/gradstudlist.abc.htm%5Dthis%5B/url"&gt;http://www.physics.cornell.edu/physics/people/gradstudlist.abc.htm]this[/url&lt;/a&gt;] page. It's the Cornell Physics Dept. list of graduate students. I count 175 names on the list. And remember: every one of them has priority over every undergraduate when it comes to research opportunities and professor's time. </p>

<p>At Carleton, it's true there will be fewer professors, less state-of-the-art equipment, and fewer opportunities. But -- there are also no graduate students, and this will more than compensate. </p>

<p>LAC professors are <em>forced</em> to include undergraduates in their research programs. What choice do they have? Every available research opportunity goes to the undergrads by default -- and so no one has to curry favor by offering to wash bottles. </p>

<p>A large university is a great place to do research -- but only if you are a graduate student or post-doc. If you want serious research responsibilities at the undergraduate level, go to a well-endowed LAC. Don't bother with the large university until it's time for your master's or doctorate.</p>

<p>At large universities, undergrads are subordinates. At LACs, undergrads are coauthors.</p>

10

<p>You mean like average class size of physics sections? You can see that for yourself at <a href="http://www.carleton.edu/cgi-bin/enroll/full%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.carleton.edu/cgi-bin/enroll/full&lt;/a> (click on a term and then a department to see all its offerings for that term). "Size" tells you the cap on the class, "enrolled" tells you how many people are actually in it. Most physics classes have around 20-30 enrolled in them, with the lab sections usually being a third of that. All in all there are about 10 professors in the physics department at any given moment with some changing around year to year as visiting professors get replaced with other visiting professors. This year there are apparently 43 physics majors in the junior and senior classes combined, but keep in mind that there are quite a few more people who take physics classes besides them since undeclared freshmen and sophomores do as well, and premeds have to take one or two physics classes (though they don't overlap too much with the majors since premed physics is much easier). Basically what this boils down to is that classes and lab sections are pretty small.</p>

11

<p>If you are absolutely sure that you have the stuff to go the distance in physics, you should know that Cornell is considered to have one of the most prestigious physics depts in the country. That said, Carleton is excellent and seems to have a much more supportive community than Cornell. If you think you will enjoy a huge school and have the stuff to be a physicist, pick Cornell.</p>

12

<p>Anyone know of any people who have actually majored in Physics at Carleton that I could talk with? I think these people could provide me with the best information.</p>

13

<p>This [page[/url</a>] has a list of undergraduate research projects that are currently being sponsored by Carleton college faculty. You should look it over, see if there is anything that particularly interests you, and then email the appropriate faculty member directly. Chances are that they will be happy to talk about their research to a prospective Carleton student, and can put you directly in touch with current undergraduate researchers. Don't be shy; LAC professors need help with their work, and are usually on the lookout for potential recruits.</p>

<p>Of course, you can try the same approach at Cornell. Contact the Director of Undergraduate Studies in Physics about possible [url=<a href="http://www.physics.cornell.edu/physics/undergradstudies/ugrad.resrch.ops.html%5Dresearch"&gt;http://www.physics.cornell.edu/physics/undergradstudies/ugrad.resrch.ops.html]research&lt;/a> opportunities](<a href="http://apps.carleton.edu/curricular/physics/for_students/projects/%5Dpage%5B/url"&gt;http://apps.carleton.edu/curricular/physics/for_students/projects/). You probably won't get a referral to the Cornell faculty, but with luck the Director might delegate a graduate student to give you more information.</p>

14

<p>Nearly all of the physics people I knew at Carleton went on to graduate school. I mean, there aren't very many of them to begin with, but it seems like the majority of them go on to PhD programs. I know one at Berkeley, one at UW-Madison, two at UMN and another at Washington. Inasmuch as there were only maybe a dozen physics majors in my class, I think that's pretty good.</p>

15

<p>I went to Swarthmore, not Carleton, but they're similar enough that what applies to one probably applies to the other. Generally, research opportunities were freely available to any student who wanted one: I was able to work for a professor all three summers.</p>

<p>At a large research university like Cornell, your chances of getting to have some involvement in something cutting-edge that gets published in Nature or Physics Review Letters are higher, but the chances that you will have truly substantive involvement are lower. At a liberal arts college like Carleton you will be doing the work that would normally be delegated to graduate students and will be working under the instruction of a professor, not a graduate student.</p>

<p>In any case, I wouldn't let this be the deciding factor. This is four years of your life we're talking about: pick the place where you think you'll be happiest. Do you want to be in a small college community or a large one? In a medium-sized town like Ithaca, or snowed in in the middle of nowhere?</p>

16

<p>What if I was interested in going on to some sort of "super graduate" program, like at a school such as Cornell, MIT, Caltech, Harvard, &c.? Are there a substantial number of people from Carleton who go on to such prestigious Physics grad schools? I don't want my choices in grad schools "limited" by the fact that I don't have, say, the name recognition from a place like Cornell.</p>

17

<p>Well, if you want a "super graduate" program, you'd better be a flat-out genius to begin with. Two of the people I mentioned turned down Cornell (for Berkeley and UW), so it's definitely possible to get in there. As for the others, I don't know of anyone personally who got into any of them (for physics anyway), although the head of MIT's Laboratory for Nuclear Science is a Carleton grad (and MIT PhD).</p>

18

<p>The guy who wrote my Physics textbook went to Carleton Undergrad. He went on to Harvard Grad for Physics. So it's certainly possible.</p>

<p>(Yes, I read the Authors section of a HS Physics textbook. And my other textbooks. I was bored. Oddly enough, one of the authors of my History text is a Carleton professor. Two people from the same small LAC. Creepy.)</p>

19

<p>If you want to go to a "super graduate" school in physics, you need to (a) get A's in virtually all your math and physics classes, (b) have stellar recommendations, (c) ace the Physics GRE, and (d) put your name on a published paper. Basically, you have to demonstrate true excellence in the field, and it doesn't matter so much where you went to college. Students from MIT aren't much better off in this regard than students from Carleton: MIT places better because MIT attracts a much larger number of people with exceptional talent in math and physics.</p>

20

<p>A detailed recent [url=<a href="http://www.collegenews.org/prebuilt/daedalus/cech_article.pdf%5Dstudy%5B/url"&gt;http://www.collegenews.org/prebuilt/daedalus/cech_article.pdf]study[/url&lt;/a&gt;] ranked US colleges and universities in terms of the percentage of undergraduates who went on to receive PhDs in science or engineering. The top 10 institutions by this measure (see Table 3) were:</p>

<p>(1) Caltech
(2) MIT
(3) Harvey Mudd
(4) Swarthmore
(5) Carleton
(6) Reed
(7) U. of Chicago
(8) Rice
(9) Princeton
(10) Harvard</p>

<p>Cornell was ranked 20th. </p>

<p>The inclusion of engineering PhDs probably hurts Carleton, since Carleton lacks an engineering program. If science PhDs alone were considered, Carleton would likely rank higher.</p>