More like Yale vs. UChicago vs. Notre Dame
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If medical school and PhD programs were not in your sonâs future, then which school offers the best employment prospects ?
If your son is not into drinking (and partying), then I would encourage him to focus on Amherst College and Carleton College. Unfortunately, Kenyon College is too small & too isolated and, like the others, in a cold weather environment.
Amherst College offers too much to pass up for one not intent on entering a PhD programâin which case Carleton College would be a strong contender alongside Amherst College.
P.S. FWIW If your son became unhappy at his ultimate choice, transferring into Carleton College or Kenyon College is much easier than transferring into Amherst College.
No reason to be concerned about the trimester system at Carleton College asâaccording to a quick google searchâCarleton students take just 3 courses per trimester similar to Dartmouth College students, but unlike Northwestern University students who typically take 4, sometimes 5, courses per term (quarter which is essentially the same as a trimester system). Some might view Carletonâs 3 course trimester system as a positive.
Also, attending a small college in New England can be viewed by many as the ultimate college experience due to the spectacular natural beauty and due to the proximity (in Amherstâs case) of several other colleges and universities.
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Not exactly.
UND would have arguably more name recognition than Chicago in the mainstream.
Iâll go with Chicago for Carleton but more like Rochester for Kenyon. Lower in recognition and rep.
As I said ultimately the student had to choose the best for them. Carleton is very well thought of but far less known.
Amherst is like Stanford. Bragging rights for life. Normally Iâm against that sort of thing.
The student loves all three.
Someone brought up trimesters. Itâs a very good point. Itâs different. Does it work ?
I think the Five Colleges consortium is indeed a notable plus for all those colleges, although the practical value will depend on each individual. Still, definitely something to consider. Carleton does do library sharing and cross-registration with St Olaf, but it is limited to one course per term, and they are on different schedules. Apparently they still make it work when it makes sense, but Five Colleges is a much more robust version of that.
Location to me is an interesting set of tradeoffs.
Amherst, MA is a town of about 39,000, Northfield about 21,000. Both are very college-towny with a lot of restaurants and shops and such, but obviously Amherst is bigger.
Amherst is then around an hour and 50 minutes drive from Boston, which of course is a great city. Northfield is about 45 minutes from Minneapolis/St-Paul, which is ALSO a great city (or two, as they would insist).
The sense I got was Carls fairly often do some sort of day trips, casually with friends or sometimes through clubs and such, and possibly date nights, although a lot of social activity stays local too. I will say my S24 was impressed when we did a Saturday visit to Carleton in the morning, and then a self-guided tour at Macalester in the afternoon, with lunch in Macalesterâs neighborhood beforehand. When we were up in that area around Macalester, he started spotting all the cars with Carleton stickers. Definitely made it concrete in his mind the idea of day-tripping on a nice Saturday.
OK, but then Amherst students also can get to Northhampton in about 20 minutes, Springfield in about 35 minutes, and Hartford is about an hour, so they have more options than just Boston. Still, my two cents is being 45 minutes from the Twin Cities is pretty nice for Carls, and to me probably the best single one of those things (Boston is great but to me that is just too long for easy day trips or date nights).
When comparing med school acceptance rates, one has to understand what comprises both the numerator and denominator. Schools game these numbers like crazy, making it impossible to compare them unless one knows exactly how each is calculated. Schools tend to not be transparent wrt the making of the sausage.
Just a sampling of questions a student should ask pre-health departments about the application process and any numbers they choose to share:
-Do these numbers include both MD and DO applicants?
-Do these numbers include just those coming out of undergrad? Or do they include students who have taken gap years and/or completed an SMP or Post-Bacc? (itâs becoming very difficult for those coming directly out of undergrad to compete with those who took off a year or two or three to gain more patient facing clinical experience, for example)
-Mix of in-state vs OOS students (at some med schools in-state students have a huge advantage)
-Does your dept give committee letters? If so, does every applicant receive one, or only the best applicants? (meaning does the dept gatekeep/weed out applicants)
-For how many cycles has each applicant applied?
-Etc.
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Carletonâs 82% figure (actually 80-85) and Amherstâs 90% figure (actually âmore than 90%â) appear to me to be measuring different things. I believe Amherst is stating that the 90% figure is the success rate after however many attempts a student tries. Carleton is saying the 82% is for those who were admitted in a given window, so it includes some first timers, some who were reapplying from a previous attempt, and some who have not yet had a chance to reapply.
The more apples to apples comparison is the first time attempt, which is â75-80%â for Amherst and â77%â for Carleton, so basically the same.
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Again, just a personal note, but my S24âs HS is on a trimester system, and when he found out it was âonlyâ three courses a term usually, he thought that sounded great! Students are going to make it work no matter what, but I do think for people into academics, the fact trimester classes tend to just launch right into the meat of the class is a positive. But then Amherst has an open curriculum approach where you might well need more of a âshopping periodâ. Again, pros and cons.
Kenyon typically has been considered a top-25ish LAC, usually in USNews and by rep on these boards⊠similar to ND/Georgetown/Vandy/Emory/WashU/CMU/Rice â Ivy+, so to speak. I picked Notre Dame because its location is closest to Kenyon â kind of a rural enclave, while its peers are all in big cities.
UChicago is known to anyone who cares about colleges or academia in general â and it is said that Carletonâs rigor is similar. âLife of the mindâ vibe. But it, like Carleton, does not have the HYPSM (or williams, amherst, swatâŠ) cache among those who are prestige-driven. But itâs absolutely top-notch in what matters: quality.
Amherst is in that WASP group, similar to HYPSM in the U world. I chose Yale due to location, overall vibe, course/curricular flexibility. Could have been H too.
All three offer extremely high quality, of course, and this kid should choose based on fit.
(most of this is preaching to the choir â just wanted to offer my reasoning)
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Medical schools actually donât care about the college you went to for undergrad. That is not on the list of things considered. @WayOutWestMom can elaborate on this.
This student needs to find out which of these places will be best in terms of integrating his sport commitment with the required courses for medical school admissions. Find out.
And regarding name recognitionâŠ
I feel all of these colleges have excellent name recognition. If you havenât heard of one, or think it has less name recognition, itâs probably because you donât live where these colleges are located.
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I do not agree that Kenyon is lower in rep. Acceptance rate doesnât equal quality.
Kenyon is highly regarded as providing a classic LAC experience. You will find people on both coasts who know of Kenyon. Itâs got a long list of famous alumni. Itâs well known for the Kenyon Review. It has highly regarded professors.
Regarding the five college consortium, I believe the general feeling is that itâs great in theory but not super practical in functionality.
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I think that is pretty fair (including because I have a pretty high opinion of Rochester too!), although I will stand by the idea that in English specifically, Kenyon is very well known, including because of course it hosts the Kenyon Review. Which sounds totally irrelevant to the OP, but it might be relevant to someone who happens across this discussion.
Itâs probably true that the NESCAC is better known than the MIAC, but when comparing the two leagues for a student who puts academics first, we highly preferred the MIAC. If you have dealt with the craziness that is youth club sports for an extended period, you know that one of the biggest time drains is simply commute time to games. The MIAC is a very convenient league because of geographic concentration. Almost all of the schools Carleton competes with are within an hourâs drive. None of Amherstâs are. I remember computing the average driving time for Carleton vs Amherst if visiting every other school in their respective conference and the round trip difference was significant. From memory (apologies if off) it was about 2 hrs for Carleton and about 4 for Amherst. If trying for grad/med school and not a fan of studying in a car, lost studying time while commuting might be a factor; it was for us in our search. Iâm not suggesting this should be your top consideration, but for otherwise evenly matched schools, itâs one thing to consider.
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I just find it ironic that all of these attempts to pinpoint Amherstâs prestige/name recognition all involve comps (HYPMS) that donât even come close to resembling it. In actuality, it is a liberal arts college situated on a hilly patch of New England thatâs just a little bit bigger than Bowdoinâs, but a lot smaller than Middleburyâs, where it snows a lot more than Pomona but where its students have a lot more fun than Swarthmoreâs, but probably not as much as Wesleyanâs.
If this doesnât help, itâs because thatâs the nature of LACs.
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Amherst is better known amongst non academics, but I donât think itâs better known than Carleton amongst academics. In terms of overall prestige, Iâm puzzled by the analogy of MIT and RPI. Using USNWR as a proxy for prestige, the two are 7 spots apart, while MIT and RPI are 58.
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Right â there is no direct comparison to a U. I simply was offering an alternate to tsbnaâs MIT/WPI/RPI comparison.
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Understood. The word, âprestigeâ on these boards is like bacon in a raccoon trap.
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The five college consortium, of which Amherst College is a member school, provides both academic and social advantages.
Social advantages are important when considering small schools. Carleton has St. Olaf nearby, Amherst has U Mass-Amherst,Smith, Mount Holyoke, and Hampshire college nearby, while Kenyon is truly isolated.
Additionally, a student at Amherst College has the option of enrolling in courses at any of the other 4 schools in the area.
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Having a student athlete, it is very important to feel like the coach and team are a good fit. Would love to hear back from the OP if their student had time with each team and was able to attend a class or two on campus. School and team matter and imagine 1 or 2 of those teams may have more of a vibe that map to her sonâs and 1 -2 may not since she was clear he was not a partier - good place to
start eliminating. A great education will be had at all 3 schools, but you need to be happy.
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I wonder how easy it would be for an athlete to enroll at consortium classes outside Amherst and still manage the athletic schedule.
I have a pro-Carleton bias because that is the school I know most about. I can confirm that athletes and non-athletes mix well at Carleton; there is no big segregation of friend groups.
One consideration: will sports participation be affected by the choice and does that matter? In other words, is Amherst more competitive in the sport and is he more likely to ride the bench (if thatâs the type of sport it is)? If he has been a starter throughout his youth, will he be okay with that?
If he is injured the first week and cannot participate further in his sport, which school would he love the best?
On the other hand, which set of coach/teammates did he click with most?
You have three great options. I think it comes down to:
- Which school does he love most if he could never do his sport again?
- Which coach and team does he like the best?
- Would he still like it if he was one of the worst performers on the team, knowing he might be one of the strongest at one of the other two?
I hope one school is the answer to all three or at least two out of three. He really canât go wrong.
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The teams take buses though. Itâs pretty comfortable studying on a bus.
When visiting NESCAC and similar schools and getting a sense of team culture, the biggest difference we found were teams that tend to study on the bus ride to away games (but not on the return trip), and those that tend to study âboth waysâ. For the latter, there are also some that grumble when the coaches ask them to put laptops/books away 15 minutes before arrival to focus on the game better. 