Carleton vs. Amherst

College Search & Selection
1

We’re faced with a bit of an unexpected situation. Our son, who I had posted about before, applied to schools this year, with a focus on LACs. He had some very good choices, and ended up selecting Carleton. He did end up on a few waitlists, though, at some schools he really liked (Williams, Pomona, Amherst). And yesterday he heard from one of them, Amherst, and they offered him admission. He’s got a couple days to think it over and decide. So, we’re looking for advise, comments that might help us pick between these two schools.

Some particular relevant topics:

He plans to study Physics (and go on to grad school). The strength of the Physics department/program is one of the primary considerations. My impression is that Carleton’s Physics program is stronger than Amherst’s.

The general campus atmosphere: My son prefers an open, collaborative, diverse, somewhat laid-back environment.

The kind of students who go there: To give an idea, one thing he really liked about Carleton, in a survey asking students what word they’d use to describe students there, “quirky” was the top choice (at another school, it was “hipster”, which he didn’t care for).

We often hear about the prominence of athletics at schools like Amherst (and Williams). Just how much is this the case there, and how would it affect someone not active in athletics? (My son played soccer in high school, also some ultimate and tennis, but he is not at a level to play on a college team.)

The study abroad program

We’re in Illinois, and one of my son’s preferences is to get out of the midwest. (I’m from the east coast originally, and still have family there.)

Amherst’s endowment is quite a bit larger – does that have much of an impact on differences between the schools?

Financial aid: Amherst’s aid is “no loan”. Does that mean we can’t do a loan (i.e., the Federal Direct Stafford loan) even if we want to? And if we can, would it be on top of the grant they’ve already given us, or would it displace some of it? (Their website seems to suggest the former; I plan to speak with their FA office tomorrow.) With the loan, the FA packages are very similar.

FWIW, we’re of course not counting on any of the other waitlists coming through, but including those other schools, I’d say that my son’s liking preference is Williams > Pomona > Amherst > Carleton; and my estimate of the quality of the Physics programs is Williams > Carleton > Amherst > Pomona.

Interestingly, I feel that deciding between these two schools now is more difficult than the initial decision for Carleton!

Thanks!

2

Congratulations! Amherst will not include loans in your aid package but you can take as much as you want up to the direct loan max, to help with your family or student contribution, for example.

D is not an athlete, loves her school, had an active social life that includes athletes and musicians and artists.

The ultimate team there was the first one ever, and it is a club sport with two level teams so if he wants to play he can.

Study abroad… Main thing to know is cost/financial aid is the same on campus or away. So he can choose whatever.

D’s academic experience has not felt competitive to her at all. She makes great use of office hours, reading and quant center, and other students.

Sorry I know nothing about the physics Dept.

3

Carleton is commonly regarded as one of the more STEM-oriented LACs, while Amherst is sometimes regarded as less STEM-focused.

You can determine the percentage of STEM majors at a LAC by adding up the relevant numbers (for computer science, engineering if offered, biology, math, and physical sciences) in Section J of the Common Data Set. For these two schools, I get:

Carleton: 40.2 % STEM, 12.1 % physical sciences specifically
Amherst: 26.6 % STEM, 5.1 % physical sciences specifically

So there does appear to be more interest in STEM, and in physical sciences particularly, at Carleton. There is some suspicion that “open curriculum” schools (such as Amherst) attract a disproportionate number of science/math-phobes (because they can avoid taking any classes in these fields). In recent years, there has some concern about the aging of the Amherst science facilities, but a brand new science center is under construction, and is scheduled to open in Fall 2018.

I’m sure you can get a great undergraduate physics education at Amherst. However, it wouldn’t surprise me if there are more physics faculty and a broader variety of physics courses at Carleton. You could review the college catalogs to see. Note, however, that Amherst students also have access to the 5-College Consortium, which could increase the range of physics course options, most likely at UMass.

4

Congrats! Carleton is a great school. No bad choices here. Amherst is collaborative, not competitive. It has a lot of athletes, but it also has a lot of artsy types. The study abroad program is excellent and easily available to all students, including those on financial aid.

Carleton is strong in physics, but Amherst is strong in physics as well (and so is Williams). All three are among the top dozen colleges in the country in the percentage of their graduates who go on to get PhDs in physics (Pomona is not).

Amherst is the most ethnically diverse top tier LAC, with 47 percent of the student body being persons of color. It also is the most economically diverse LAC (along with Vassar). A full quarter of the Amherst class is on Pell Grants, which means lower income students on full rides. Carleton has about half that. Not sure how much those things matter to you.

In addition, be aware that Amherst is building a spectacular new science center which will open at the end of your son’s freshman year.

https://www.amherst.edu/offices/facilities/depts/designconst/capital_project/current_projects/science-center

5

You’ve gotten some great responses here. The fact is – there’s now way to screw this up. Both spectacular choices. Carleton definitely has its strengths and is, by reputation, probably the best LAC in the entire Midwest. Amherst is maybe the best in the country or certainly among the top two or three. Purely on reputation, I’d give Amherst a small but not insignificant edge. Also, keep in mind the Five College Consortium and those additional resources at hand with Amherst.

But if Carleton is stronger in physics, then that’s certainly reason enough to go there instead. Again, no wrong choices here.

Good luck with your tough decision.

6

@csdad2 - Congratulations to your son! My D has decided to go to Carleton (from warm California). She is also interested in STEM and we found Carleton to have one of the strongest programs, among other things. If your son’s goal is to get out of the Midwest, I think discussing your topics is a moot point. Both schools offer equally strong liberals arts education, but they are different in vibe.

Another question to ask him though: does he want to live and work on the East Coast right after graduation? If so, Amherst will have more name recognition there than Carleton for recruiting by employers who are clueless about SLACs. On the other hand, Carleton is better known in the Midwest and among friends in our community, here in California (which is the second biggest supplier of Carls after Minnesota). But in the end, both schools have strong reputations and alumni networks, and both are highly regarded by grad schools, if that is your son’s goal. And among employers who know SLACs, both will have equal standing.

Responses to your topics, PART 1:

My friends who are physics faculty at top universities (including a college roommate who is a physics professor at Stanford) seem to think Carleton has one of the strongest programs while Amherst is known more for its strength in the humanities & social sciences. This is reflected in the breakdown of students by major too. However, Amherst is an amazing school and I’m sure your son will get a great science education in either school. Incidentally, physics is one of my D’s interests. BTW, did your son get a nice letter from the Carleton physics department chair, Prof. Pattanayak? If he listed Physics as an interest on Common App, he should have.

Amherst is more diverse ethnically. They have recently made a push to recruit URMs, and the very fact that the college president’s quote on diversity was a topic for the Common App writing supplement speaks volumes about their priorities.

Carleton is 60% White. However, Carleton tries hard to make their student body as diverse as possible, given that Minnesota doesn’t attract as many minority students, and they love international students. Moreover, our impression is that the students are very respectful of other cultures, open-minded about diverse ideas and customs, and welcoming of diverse students. (We are Asian American.) Diversity can also refer to interests and personalities, and Carleton is definitely diverse in that sense. My wife and daughter attended the International Festival last Saturday while visiting Carleton and saw evidence of this. Plus, they explicitly asked minority students whether they felt uncomfortable there. Except for one African American male, most said that they never felt excluded or uncomfortable. One African American male from L.A. went so far as to say that he has never worried about being profiled or harassed by cops in the Twin Cities or Northfield, which is a far cry from his lifelong experience in diverse Southern California. (St. Olaf, however, is a different story. Read the news to learn what’s happening there. But right-minded students are standing up against hate and protesting against the administration, which has apparently done nothing to combat the racist acts.)

Our takeaway from visits and conversations was that Carleton is one of the friendliest, most supportive, and most collaborative colleges out there. And while the academics are intense, they are pretty laid back, or at least they don’t overtly give off a competitive vibe. Amherst seemed more “classic New England competitive” to us, and students didn’t appear as happy on the surface, but I don’t want to generalize based on our experience at one point in time. You’ll find all kinds of students at both schools, and I’m sure your son will find a core group of friends who will make his college years a positive experience. Faculty at both schools are great.

PSA: Some past and present Carls are requesting that people get over the “quirky” label. :slight_smile: However, it is true that students at Carleton come from colorful backgrounds, which makes life more interesting. I can tell you that we found the students (and other college community members) to be the friendliest and most down-to-earth of the 30+ colleges we visited. EVERYONE would stop and talk at length about everything we wanted to know, and if they were rushing to class, they would offer to drag my daughter along with them to class, introduce her to professors, and treat her to coffee and lunch afterwards. How cool is that? This is precisely why she fell in love with that place.

Our tour guide at Amherst was friendly, but aren’t all of them expected to be? The average student we intercepted to chat seemed to be in a hurry to get away, no matter the time of day. Not a reason to judge an entire school, but we couldn’t help coming away with certain perceptions of the campus culture.

7

@csdad2 - Responses to your topics, PART 2:

I don’t think this will be a big deal at either school. At most schools, even SLACs, athletes (and the men/women attracted to them) often form cliques. It goes hand in hand with team bonding. However, it usually doesn’t affect other students, unless they are dying to be part of who they perceive to be the “in” crowd and get rejected. And we’re not talking about giant powerhouses of NCAA Division I here.

We like Carleton’s specific options, but both schools will offer excellent opportunities. One difference worth noting: the Carleton trimester-based academic calendar enables a student with demanding academic requirements (for a double major, for example) to go abroad for the six-week winter break (Thanksgiving to New Year’s) or for a 10-week trimester. In the latter case, the student can still take classes in Northfield for the other two trimesters, if desired. (Or you can go abroad for half a year to a year.)

There you go. Amherst wins, if this is important to your son. For us, it was the opposite. My daughter will be experiencing something very different by going to the Midwest, which is one reason she turned down all of her California choices. I agree with your son that it is important to explore something different.

Not that I noticed, but there may some advantages. Amherst has a slightly better student:faculty ratio. My impression is that Amherst provides slightly better financial aid, but each person’s experience may be different. On the other hand, Amherst has a higher sticker price, and Carleton spends more on R&D (can’t find my source, but I saw the figures somewhere). So who knows?

You can always borrow a Parent Plus loan up to the expected family contribution. It will not replace any grants or scholarships. Eligibility for Federal Stafford loans, subsidized or unsubsidized, should be stated on the financial aid offer.

Good luck! As others will tell you, your son can’t go wrong with either choice. Great schools.

8

Number of Physics & Astronomy majors at Carleton, Class of 2016: 26
https://apps.carleton.edu/campus/ira/assets/Majors_grads_trends.pdf

Number of Physics & Astronomy majors at Amherst, Class of 2016: 7
https://www.amherst.edu/system/files/media/Amherst%2520College%2520SSR%2520Class%2520of%25202020.pdf

So there do appear to be significantly more physics majors at Carleton. It would not be surprising if the physics resources at Carleton (faculty, labs, class options, etc) were more extensive, given this disparity.

9

Students at Carleton dressed up the Goodsell Observatory as R2D2. Not a reason to choose Carleton, but I think that’s pretty cool.

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^I would not use the raw numbers, or even proportions, of science majors at a school to evaluate the quality of that college’s programs in science. Quality is far more reliant on the professors and the resources offered at the college. One could also argue that open-curriculum schools attract a lot of STEM students who want to avoid taking humanities classes, and indeed, I have heard many STEM students make that claim. So I’d avoid stereotyping and go straight for the facts.

Let’s also remember that undergraduate students go to get a well-rounded undergraduate education, not specifically to study one thing like a graduate program. It’s important to go to a college with a solid department in the area of interest (particularly if there is interest in doing research), but either Carleton or Amherst will offer that. You could literally flip a coin and be fine. You don’t have to go to the best tippy-top school in a specific discipline to get into a PhD program in that area. What you need is a good solid department and at least one professor who is willing to mentor and shepherd you through for research and grad school. I’m confident you could get that at either college.

A quick look at the departmental websites show that their physics faculty is about the same size - if I counted correctly, excluding visiting and emeriti professors there are 9 full-time, tenure or tenure-track faculty at Carleton and 8 at Amherst. Amherst’s are, on average, more established in their careers (they are more heavily populated with full professors, who have typically been teaching 12-15+ years), but not by a whole lot - Carleton has one or two more assistant professors, it seems. The faculty at both Amherst and Carleton got their PhDs from physics departments of roughly equivalent quality, on average. A few more of Carleton’s faculty went to higher-ranked programs. Both have solid representation in astronomy and astrophysics, from browsing the catalogs. Amherst may benefit from a close connection with UMass, which has a mid-ranked physics doctoral program.

I don’t know anything about physical facilities but those can offer a clue to the level of investment (and anticipated enrollments) a college has in particular subject areas.

I will say, though, that Carleton is a top 10 producer of PhDs more generally and a top 5 producer of PhDs in the physical sciences. Amherst is in the top 30 for science and engineering PhDs overall. That could be due to a lot of different factors, but interest and investment in the sciences might be contributing factors there too. (Pomona is in the top 15 and Williams is in the top 20. This data is from the Survey of Earned Doctorates conducted by the National Science Foundation.)

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Bobshaw - Goodsell Observatory as R2D2 - a glorious moment in Carleton pranking history!

http://www.citypages.com/news/carleton-students-love-r2-d2-so-much-they-turn-a-building-into-the-droid-6539523

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I’m an Amherst grad with a Physics PhD. I went to grad school with a guy from Carleton. I think either school will prepare you for pursuing a doctorate. I’d consider the differences in the departments to be a wash. If you are going to a LAC it’s because to want to study physics and Russian Lit, or philosophy, or whatever the best professors on campus are teaching. Consider broadening your comparison.

13

@juillet and @bucketDad make a good point: you go to a liberal arts school for a well-rounded education, so simply comparing physics departments is selling yourself short. Besides, who knows what your son will become interested in once he starts college? In this comparison, I think the academics are generally comparable. However, your son may prefer the open curriculum of Amherst to the breadth requirements of Carleton (or vice versa). I would caution you on comparing specific professors. You’ll find great professors at both schools.

Then there is the question of three classes per trimester (Carleton) vs. four classes per semester (Amherst). This can make a huge difference, depending on your son’s learning style. As an example, since my firstborn is a champion of procrastination and last-minute cramming, like her father, the trimester system is excellent. She is used to the fast pace given her background in taking classes at the community college (quarter system), and the ten-week schedule will give her no time to slack off. On the other hand, a friend of ours with a chemistry degree from Berkeley looked at the syllabus of the intro chemistry class and said, “Whoa. That’s a lot to absorb in such a short period of time.” The semester system gives you more time to let concepts sink in. What does your son prefer? Is he disciplined about staying on top of his work and pacing himself?

Regarding @juillet 's point about facilities, I can tell you firsthand that Carleton’s science facilities are better than Amherst’s, and further improvements are in the works. Then again, someone mentioned that Amherst also has improvement projects planned, so during your son’s time in college, this may become a wash.

14

You are getting some great input here, OP. Please let us know what your family decides.

15

I came out of Amherst, got my PhD in Physics, and it led me to a successful STEM career. When I look back at Amherst, the STEM classes launched my career path…but if I had to list the 10 most memorable classes/professors I encountered while I was there…7-8 would be non-STEM. The open curriculum allowed me to follow my career interests while taking advantage of the greatest resource the school has to offer…its teachers.

Last August I spoke with a Physics prof at Amherst. He was already making preparations to move his lab to the new science building. Very excited about it. If your son chooses Amherst, those facilities will come online right when he would need them.

16

Carleton would be the most laid back. Minnesota nice is a thing there. If your child wants to get out of the Midwest, then the question is kind of answered, though, no? Hard to get more Midwestern than Northfield, MN.

17

The community of fellow physics students (and of STEM students generally) is going to be significantly larger at Carleton than at Amherst. In the Class of 2016, for example, a Carleton physics major had 25 other physics students in his or her class, while an Amherst physics major had 6. This seems like it would be a noticeable difference.

A larger physics community doesn’t automatically make Carleton a better choice – the whole point of LACs, after all, is that smaller can be better. However, it is a difference that will affect the undergraduate experience of a physics major, and which is therefore worthy of consideration.

18

That would be my kid who stated exactly that reason for preferring an open curriculum. But lo and behold, she’s taken a writing class and a couple of humanities courses and in one case encountered a favorite professor. She is a STEM major in a small department and so far that means she gets a lot of attention from the dept chair and her professors, help with planning summer research, study abroad plus research connections, and rec letters.

I don’t have much to add to the very helpful posts here so far, but will point to a couple of resources you may find helpful.

The science center is under construction and is supposed to open fall '18. There are details here: https://www.amherst.edu/amherst-story/future/greenway-campus/science-center

Amherst hosts a SURF program in the following areas (currently, they change year to year): https://www.amherst.edu/academiclife/support/funding/students/amherst-student-research-funding-opportunities/summer-research-opportunities-at-amherst/2017-surf-research-areas - it’s paid and comes with housing. They will also provide funding for unpaid internships and research elsewhere.

My D also wanted to get out of the midwest, and we also have family in the NE, SO I get where your S is coming from.

Carleton sounds like an amazing place too, I can’t see you going wrong here.

19

Since you mentioned study abroad and financial aid, I’ll add this very detailed explanation describing how program expenses as well as airfare, etc are covered: https://www.amherst.edu/offices/financialaid/studyabroad_aid

20

S1, a HS junior, has interest in both those schools if he decides to go the LAC route. Completely different reasons than the OP’s. Aunt, Uncles and cousins live in Amherst, and he has interest in working near the economic centers of Boston, Washington, NYC, Philly, etc. when he graduates. Seems Amherst would be better for that.

He had moderate interest in Carleton till he visited. He was kind of knocked out by most of it. Hey, I wanted to go there! I think it’s setting in rural MN is kind of a blessing. If it was in a more populated/warmer region I believe it would be overrun with applicants. Course, then the tenor of the school would probably change, and students and staff would start strutting around with their noses in the air.

I don’t think either school is a sports powerhouse, but would guess that Amherst is more accomplished in that area.

Excuse the random musings.

Carleton was actually the more expensive of the two when I ran the NPC's for our middle class income bracket, but it wasn't a large difference.