Carleton vs. Amherst

College Search & Selection
21

You’re giving the open curriculum too much credit here.

Don’t get me wrong – it’s great that a STEM major takes lots of cool non-STEM classes. This is, in fact, the LAC ideal. But the exact same thing would have been possible at a LAC with distribution requirements, e.g. Carleton or Williams or Swarthmore. The point of distribution requirements is simply to guarantee that a STEM major takes non-STEM classes.

So you could have been a STEM major and taken lots of cool non-STEM courses at any of these schools. The only difference is that Amherst allowed you to take cool non-STEM courses on a voluntary basis, while at the other schools, taking cool non-STEM courses would have been required. But the net result (for you) would have been exactly the same.

If you plan to explore a wide variety of disciplines during your LAC career, then it makes no difference whether you pick a school with an open curriculum or one with distribution requirements. If there are distribution requirements, you will fulfill them without even trying.

The open curriculum matters for people who want to limit their explorations. For example, if you were a STEM major and you wanted to avoid taking non-STEM courses, then it would make a big difference if you enrolled at Amherst vs. the other schools.

22

Thanks for the responses everyone!

A few followup points:

Regarding my son wanting to leave the midwest (or even the strength of the Physics program), that’s just a factor, not an absolute. Carleton/Minnesota, while still the midwest, does provide some differences from where we are, e.g., in terms of culture/geography/recreation/climate. Carleton also pulls in a fair proportion of students from other parts of the country (e.g., the coasts). And before he heard from Amherst, my son did favor it over some other east coast schools.

As to what he might do after school, he is interested in doing something research-related, perhaps space-related. I’m not sure either location provides a significant advantage in this regard, especially since grad school is likely to happen in the interim. And of course, this all could change during undergrad.

He is interested in doing research, both during the school year and during summers. Perhaps I should’ve mentioned this, although I don’t know how much of a difference this will make, it does seem like both schools present good opportunities for this.

He is interested in being exposed to a broad variety of courses and fields, although not necessarily to the point of double-majoring. He has been open to schools with a core curriculum or a more open curriculum, so I don’t think this is a major factor (especially between two schools like this).

He does play the viola quite well and is interested in continuing that, say participating in an orchestra. But again, not to the level, say, of double-majoring or minoring in Music. This kind of opportunity seemed present at most of the schools we looked at, so I didn’t feel the need to mention it.

We did visit Amherst a few months back, and did hear about and see the construction of the new science building. But we didn’t see images/plans for the entire facility, so thanks for those links @ThankYouforHelp and @OHMomof2. It looks like it will be a great addition to campus.

Another point I should perhaps mention: He has work-study as part of his FA package. At Carleton, they find the position for you, whereas at most other schools the student is on their own to find a position. Anyone know how this works at Amherst? Oh, I just searched, and it looks like it’s up to the student. But does anyone know how difficult it is to find a position? At some schools I gather there are fewer positions than students.

Apologies for use of the term “quirky” :-). I realize it is overused, especially in this context. But it is concise, and does capture some important, relevant aspects.

Anyway, in some areas, it seems like Carleton is the clear winner, in others, Amherst. Guess that’s what’s making this decision harder!

23

I’m sure that this is true. However, I also think that there are significantly more “science-phobes” and “math-phobes” out there than “social science-phobes” or “humanities-phobes”.

Amherst’s own data bear this out. The following numbers are from the Amherst Class of 2011, and were compiled for a 2013 accreditation review. For comparison, let’s use “3+ classes per academic division” as a benchmark, because it is a common LAC distribution requirement (as at, for example, Williams):

Humanities Division: 8% did not meet the benchmark (i.e. took fewer than 3 classes in this division). 1% took zero classes.

Social & Behavioral Sciences Division: 10% did not meet the benchmark. 2% took zero classes.

Science & Math: 43% did not meet the benchmark. 14% took zero classes.

It’s hard to escape the conclusion that many Amherst students use the open curriculum as a way to avoid science and math. Yes, some avoid humanities or social sciences, but not nearly as many.

Another way to look at it: 92% of the Amherst Class of 2011 would have satisfied commonly used distribution requirements for humanities, and 91% would have done so in social sciences. But only 57% would have done so in science and math.

https://www.amherst.edu/system/files/AC_NEASC_5_Year_Report_2013_0.pdf
(Table: Class of 2011 Courses Attempted by Division, on p. 52).

24

@corbett “It’s hard to escape the conclusion that many Amherst students use the open curriculum as a way to avoid science and math. Yes, some avoid humanities or social sciences, but not nearly as many.”

That may be true. It doesn’t change the fact that the students at Amherst who DO choose to do science and math fare very well and have excellent opportunities and college support for further academic study like PhDs, for medical school and other professional schools, and for recruiting to businesses. Forbes just ranked Amherst No. 1 in the nation on its list of Private Colleges Worth Every Penny.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nataliesportelli/2017/04/26/10-expensive-colleges-worth-every-penny-2017/#5943768d5f6a

Again, I want to emphasize that Carleton is also an excellent school and would be a great option.

25

This is not, by the way, an argument for dropping the open curriculum at Amherst (or any other school). On the contrary, it’s great that there are a variety of different LACs with different curricular options.

I do think, though, that the open curriculum has certain consequences that are not widely appreciated. Ironically, it may lead to a curriculum that is actually narrow and “closed” by traditional LAC standards. So while I am not arguing for change to the open curriculum, I am arguing for greater “openness” about it.

26

You can’t go wrong with either choice, but the schools have such different vibes that I don’t think the same kids would generally be equally drawn to both.

27

Agree with @MatzoBall - the vibes of the campuses and student bodies are very different. My daughter looked at Carleton and most of the NESCAC schools. She really liked several of the NESCAC schools but fell in love with Carleton and was admitted ED. Had that not worked out, she would have applied to Middlebury, Bowdoin and perhaps a few other schools in the northeast, but she had no intention of applying to Amherst.

28

Just another parent chiming in – we know a bunch of kids very well who are at both Amherst and Carleton. All love their experience, all are nice, good kids, intellectually motivated. The kind of young person you would love your own child to be romantically involved with.

If my children were ever to have been so fortunate as to have this choice, I would have suggested focusing on the structural differences. Trimester at Carleton and semester at Amherst; distribution requirements at Carleton vs. open curriculum at Amherst. Throw in that Amherst’s strategies for enhancing diversity are very successful as it is one of the most diverse LACs around.

Emotionally, how did kid react when heard about Amherst? Excited? Ho hum? There is the old “coin toss and see how you react when one school wins” – excited or dismayed?

There is no wrong answer here, just two great, slightly different choices.

29

Congratulations to your son on two great choices!

Check out:

www.thecollegesolution.com/the-colleges-where-phds-get-their-start/

According to those lists, Carleton is #7 for sending students on to PhD programs in Physics. Amherst appears on other lists, but not the physics list. That’s one data point, if you are looking at numeric data, but you also got a great anecdote from a poster here who majored in physics at Amherst, so individual experiences may vary.

As long as both physics programs look like they can match his needs and interests, he might weigh environmental factors of the school more heavily.

Carleton has St. Olaf nearby, but Amherst shares a consortium with Smith, Mt. Holyoke, Hampshire, and U Mass Amherst. That increases the breadth of courses available to you. And that also means there are a lot of women around!

The open curriculum does not mean just that you can avoid subjects. It means that everyone in every class is there because they are truly interested in the subject. That has to influence class discussions.

Amherst has seemingly limitless resources. Our tour guide said he was blown away by how much they can do for their students. He told us about how you can borrow a car and go to Boston or the White Mountains in NH or something, and Amherst even will reimburse the students for the gas.

As far as the athletic thing goes: as you pointed out, people say that about Williams too. I never played a sport at Williams. I never even went to a game a game at Williams. I am the least athletic person ever. And I was very happy socially and never felt excluded from anything in any way. You find like-minded friends wherever you go, I think. And Williams at least had a very friendly culture where people interacted across groups, maybe because of the freshman entry system mixing up everyone from the start. Our tour guide at Amherst this year wasn’t an athlete, either, and he was African American, and a math/philosophy double major, and he was very happy at Amherst.

I know Amherst better than Carleton, as someone who visited Amherst three times before picking Williams, my husband applied there too, and we have visited it recently with my son. None of us had any interest in leaving the northeast, so we did not visit Carleton, but it does sound awesome in college guides and on this site.

Good luck! Either choice will be a fantastic opportunity!

30

I am in full agreement with both @CodyChesnutt and @MatzoBall, in that we found it impossible to love both Amherst and Carleton. We ended our campus visit to Amherst with plans to never look back, so submitting an application to Amherst was never a consideration. Our daughter is a happy freshman at Carleton (prospective Bio major) who applied only RD to all her college choices.

Your son either does not have a good enough of a feel for both of the colleges or else he is over intellectualizing the decision process, in my view. His gut feeling (once he is fully informed) should be his guide.

31

At this level, forget about everything but fit and cost.

32

More support for comments by codychesnutt, matzoball, and Minnesotadadof3.

There’s little confusing these two schools’ over-riding atmospheres. At the risk of stereotyping, Amherst is measurably more east coast pre-professional, Carleton measurably more intellectually individualistic.

The Goodsell Observatory prank referenced earlier (http://www.citypages.com/news/carleton-students-love-r2-d2-so-much-they-turn-a-building-into-the-droid-6539523) is pure Carleton, rinse and repeat, not likely to be mistaken by anyone who knows these schools as a way to spend a night in Amherst.

These difference are neither good nor bad, just differences. I’ll support the call for the OPs son to search his heart as well as his mind in determining where he’d most feel at home these coming four years.

33

Just wanted to post that Carleton also had current plans to renovate their science buildings and build a new addition, scheduled for completion within 1-2 years:
https://apps.carleton.edu/campus/facilities/projects/science/

My son and I just finished up an accepted students visit at Carleton; I loved the general “buzz” of intellectual conversation I heard everywhere on campus, the unpretentious friendly atmosphere, and the study abroad programs which include about 18 to choose from per year run by a Carleton professor (either for one of the 10-week terms where you can take 3 Carleton classes or for a short time during the long 6-week winter break and connected to a class before and after said break. Seriously, there are 24 Carl’s in Rome with two History professors right now, taking their full load of 3 classes: 1 on ancient Rome, can’t remember the second - maybe Renaissance time period?, and 3 was some sort of writing focus). If going with a professor and 24 Carl’s isn’t your idea of adventure, there were literally dozens more individual program opportunities to choose from for study abroad.

We never considered Amherst/Williams/Swat, though we did visit and son thought Haverford was OK, but not really his crowd.  

I second/third the posters who have said you can't go wrong with these two choices.  Relax, and let your son pick the school that feels right for him today!
34

@csdad2 - Re-read this thread and you may find some interesting patterns. It’s a given that while some of us have tried to objectively compare the two colleges, we all have our biases. However, any commonalities you find among people who favor one school over the other are telling. For example, when I read the comments from current or incoming Carleton parents, I am detecting certain themes that resonate with me. It’s no coincidence that I too am an incoming Carleton parent. Ask your son which themes resonate with him. That may help decide fit since you don’t have the luxury of visiting both schools again.

35

Just read through the thread and was surprised at the references to “we finished an accepted students day” or “incoming Carleton parent”. I thought our job was to help them develop their list based on their criteria and our budget, and then let them pick the school that is right for them. Given that both of these schools are great, as are all of the top-15, I can’t imagine there is a wrong choice unless it’s not his. A happy kid at the #8, #10, or #12 ranked school is going to end up in a better place than an unhappy one at #2 - JMHO.

My DD picked #12 Hamilton over # 7 Carleton because it was right for her - last I checked the Hamilton graduates are doing well as the Netflix Co-founder and the current Goldman Sachs Co-COO are graduates.

36

Hey, OP. Former Carl parent here. A few thoughts …

Work study … You indicated that they find jobs for the kids. I don’t remember that being the case for ds, especially after his first year. As a freshman, he worked in the dining hall, but I think that’s because he wasn’t aggressive in finding his own gig. Subsequent years, he found jobs that were more suited to his interests, though I will say that he loved even working in the dining hall. lol One thing I loved is how kids get paid. They can either take all the money, have their whole check credited to their student account or split it 50-50. I assumed every school did this, but that wasn’t the case at ds2’s university; as a result, I think the cash got squandered. Not so for ds1 – he had all his check rolled over into his account and was such a diligent worker that he got a fat refund when he graduated!

He did study abroad junior year in a non-Carleton program. In addition to the Carleton-led options, there are scores of other options thanks to the consortiums to which Carleton belongs. Every year, there’s a big study-abroad fair where kids can check out their choices, and that’s how ds found his program – a semester in New Zealand. He absolutely loved it, including meeting kids from other colleges. Every year on his birthday, the first person on FB to post a msg is his host mom from Auckland. It’s so fun to get that yearly reminder of his wonderful time there. The FA office was wonderful. Everything went really smoothly. He handled the whole thing, and it just couldn’t have gone better.

About ultimate … well, it’s a thing at Carleton. If he doesn’t want to play super-competitively, there’s the Hot Karls, the developmental team. And, of course, the DIII team and the DI team. Just knowing that he played ultimate in HS makes me think that he belongs at Carleton! :slight_smile: Yes, Amherst has a team, too. But I’m unabashedly biased.

37

As everyone says, can’t go wrong with either. So pick the one with the colors you like better. Because you’ll have to wear that logo merchandise for the rest of your life, while college is only four years.

38

Yet another ‘he can’t go wrong’. One additional consideration that was a factor for my son in his choice of where to apply ED (Carleton was in his final 4) was the trimester vs. semester.

DS is at Haverford and the schools have a very similar student personality in my estimation. I believe these tend to be overlap schools for applicants. This one may just be a gut decision regarding where he feels he would fit in best.

It’s a good dilemma to have! Great schools!

39

Great thread. I have a son at Amherst and a son at Emory. Both had that epiphany moment, of “this is where I should be.” That epiphany doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the right choice, but it has worked out well for both of them. Their epiphany was based more than anything on the other kids that were there, i.e., that they felt that they’d find “their people” at the school.

I’m in the camp that your son can’t/shouldn’t try to differentiate the schools based on academics, in that there’s no way that he’d exhaust the academic resources at either of these fine schools. And either school will serve him well as a launchpad to whatever comes next. I think he’s best served by looking at the gestalt of each school, and deciding where he thinks he’d more easily fit.

And of course, you MUST let us all know the decision.

40

On the trimester thing …

I remember when ds1 was looking at Carleton that there seemed to be a feeling that trimesters were bad. It wasn’t enough to dissuade him, but I remember talking about it. For me, it ended up being fantastic in ways I wouldn’t have imagined.

When the kids come home early Thanksgiving week, they are home until January. This meant a couple of things …

One, there was no expensive, extra trip home two holidays in a row. You never know what the weather will be like in MN in November. We never had to worry whether those pricey tickets we bought were going to get eaten because he couldn’t get out or back due to weather or that the trip was severely shortened because of delays and such. When he got home for turkey, he was home past New Year’s. Ds2, who is at a faraway school on the semester system, has never come for Thanksgiving.

Two, that long break was so welcome. His first two years, he worked for his summer employer. They were thrilled to have him filling 25 hours/week during the busy holiday season. And he loved the extra money. The third year he got home the week before Christmas because he was abroad. The fourth year he used that extra time to study for the GRE and took it the week before he flew back.

Three, people seemed to think that doing study abroad would be difficult because of the trimesters. Well, if you are doing a Carleton program that’s obviously not an issue. And kids, such as my ds, who do a non-Carleton program, just did it in the fall, when it’s an even trade (one trimester/one semester). And, they miss some of that cold weather by not going to campus until spring. Well, “spring.” :wink: