Carnegie Mellon--IB DP at 3.65 or All AP at 4.0?

<p>My son attends The International Academy in suburban Detroit, which is a top ranked public school. It is an IB school, with all students required to apply for the DP and take a full IB DP class load. He is presently getting a 3.65 unweighted average.</p>

<p>Compared to my older son who attended a very well respected high school and graduated with an unweighted GPA of 3.9 carrying all AP classes (2 as a sophomore, 5 as a junior and 6 as a senior) his AP work load was no where near the work that my IB son is receiving.</p>

<p>Therein lies the dilemma. In order to receive a "you're admitted" letter from Carnegie Mellon (everything else being equal), is my 11th grade son better off sticking with the IB and obtain his diploma and a 3.65 unweighted GPA or would he be better off transferring back to his home school, taking 6 AP classes and ending up with a 4.0?</p>

<p>Thanks in advance for your guidance.</p>

<p>i’d say obviously a 4.0 looks better, but won’t cmu consider the grades from both schools? also if 3.65 is respectable at a prestigious school, then go for it. people get into cmu with less than perfect gpas. </p>

<p>also i’m not sure how you can assume “all else equal” when considering two different people</p>

<p>bco09–I think I made my post confusing. If my son were to return to his home high school for his senior year, he could graduate with a 4.0 in all AP classes (he would be able to take 7 of them based on their schedule). If he stays at The International Academy, he will most probably graduate with a 3.65 and an IB Diploma.</p>

<p>That is what I meant by saying “all other things being equal”, what is going to look better on a resume? I don’t have a clue what kind of weight admissions officers put on graduating from The International Academy (typically in the Newsweek top 20 high schools in the country) versus a high school that ranks maybe Newsweek 800 in the country.</p>

<p>Hope that above makes more sense. Thanks!</p>

<p>Unfortunately I really can’t add too much, as I am not overly familiar with cmu’s admissions criteria, and I am several years removed from the application process myself. That said:</p>

<p>-How much do you hope to gain by switching schools for the final year? If things haven’t changed, CMU will only really see the fall semester grades before making a decision, so it really comes down to one semester at 4.0 vs one semester slightly below</p>

<p>What I can comment on is the value of the high school work assuming your son does get into CMU. Taking AP classes is great, but in reality it is completely useless unless your son can get 5’s on the tests and get credit at CMU. Personally, if I was choosing a school for academics / how it will affect my college life, I would choose the school where I could guarantee the most relevent 5’s or perfect IB scores. CMU is very generous with AP credit, and if you can get out of 1-2 semesters worth of boring gen eds / intro science / pre reqs, it feels pretty good. If your son switches schools, gets an easy AP 4.0, and then bombs the AP tests, i’m not convinced that would be a great call</p>

<p>I am trying to gather the information I can. Ultimately, it is my son’s decision as it was when he decided to leave his home high school to go to The International Academy because he wanted to be with other students who really wanted to learn and not screw around. My gut feeling is that he will stay at The International Academy for his senior year (2011-12).</p>

<p>Leaving his high school to attend the IA was his decision, as he was bored with the Honors classes they offered. He was getting all "A"s and did his homework during lunch. At the IA that is certainly not the case. In fact, they make the students sign a contract acknowledging that they will have an average of three hours of homework per night before they are admitted.</p>

<p>I think what is bugging him now is that his buddies at his old high school (with whom he has maintained close relationships even though they are at different high schools now) are in all AP classes and are getting all "A"s without doing anywhere near the level of work he is doing. When he looks at their homework and their assignments versus his and adds the travel time he spends to get to The International Academy every day (about an hour), and the now apparent fact that colleges look at AP classes at the same level as they do an IB Diploma and seem to give no added weight to attending the IA versus his home school, I think he is second guessing his decision to go to the IA.</p>

<p>If he had stayed at his home high school (about a ten minute walk from our home), he would have ended his junior year with an unweighted 4.0 and seven APs under his belt. Add that to the APs he would have taken in his senior year (probably seven like his two older brothers did), and he would have graduated high school with 14 APs, a lot less work and I am sure darn close to an unweighted 4.0.</p>

<p>At this point, he a senior year of picking up 7 APs and a senior unweighted GPA of 4.0 versus an IB Diploma from arguable one of the toughest high schools in the country and a 3.65 or so average overall. The fact that he will be applying to colleges before his first semester grades would be in from his AP classes is a definite negative. On the other hand, he is thinking if it isn’t going to make a difference, why kill himself with the IB senior year when he could still show he is taking a rigorous curriculum to admissions officers by showing he is taking 7 APs his senior year?</p>

<p>It will be interesting to see what he decides. I didn’t have all these tough choices when I was his age. I was happy I got out of high school without having to repeat a grade! :)</p>

<p>At this university, AP’s don’t count for much. I think our’s got an economics class, english, and a term of calculus for credit. Our state flagship gave him high sophmore standing. </p>

<p>CMU is School specific so you need to check.</p>

<p>meh, idk. i got ~100 units towards my major in AP credit</p>

<p>We are in an AP/IB school so kids can pick either route or mix it up. From the experience of my kids and their friends, you are SOOOO right about the IB being more work than AP. </p>

<p>My son is at CMU and was a mix-it-up kid. He did not want to do the IB English…the excessive focus on one or two novels did not interest him…he wanted more of a survey class like AP. English is also a weakness for him and AP english is, frankly, much much less work than IB HL English. </p>

<p>In the end, he did 2 AP and 1 IB SL Math as a Sophomore. Junior/Senior year he had HL Spanish (bilingual), SL Physics, HL Math (co registered as AP AB/BC calc), AP English sequence, IB HL Art, but took one regular or honors class each year for a break. He took both IB and math AP exams. </p>

<p>He had a mediocre gpa 3.4 UW, 3.8 W. He applied to CMU as an CFA student so really the portfolio counted the most. He wanted to find out if he was capable of doing engineering or comp science courses so put these schools down as choices (not dual program) and even with these mediocre grades, tepid expression of interest (did not mention in his essay) and only Math II and Spanish SAT II (didn’t take a science SAT II) he was waitlisted in for those two programs. What I did notice is that he received a lot of AP credit but no IB credit…SL physics, despite being as rigorous as AP isn’t considered for credit by CMU. Most irritating is that the 7 on HL Spanish (two year course) counts for zero credit at CMU despite it being the same course that a spaniard takes! He did, however, get credit for AP spanish from 10th grade which is a joke for a native spanish speaker. My sense is that CMU, like most schools, underestimates the rigour of the IB SL courses. Thus, the full IB may be seen as an extremely rigorous program but my guess is that CMU doesn’t see it as any more rigorous than lots and lots of AP. There are several graduates from our HS at CMU in all the different colleges and all these kids took heavy IB and AP loads.</p>

<p>My daughter is a sophomore in HS. There is a belief that full IB kids to do a little better in the admissions arms race…the ivys etc. so she thinks she should take IB. I think that is hooey…I think what seems to count is that the top colleges are very familiar with our HS and any kid with good grades and a lot of college level classes plus the test scores has a great chance at a great school… full AP students and mix it up kids make it to HYP and CMU also. The thing is that the very best students choose full IB so it isn’t surprising that they also do well in admissions. </p>

<p>There is one huge advantage of the IB program over AP t hat is seen post admissions. Kids who do the full IB at our school are apparently better prepared for college. Over and over again, I hear kids coming back from top schools saying that the IB program and IB courses were the best preparation. My S took only one year of HL comp science and his friend took AP comp science at our hs, both are at CMU both took intro comp science…hands down the IB course was the better preparation for CMU according to both kids. Two girls who went to Harvard and both turned down Brown…one was full IB the other full AP…both are doing very well but both say that the IB seemed to do a better job preparing the one for the harvard curriculum in liberal arts…all that writing! The math prep is very similar but the science curriculum is apparently way better and that is why AP is revamping bio and chem over the next year or two.</p>

<p>If it were my son and he liked the rigor at his IB HS and it sounds like the AP program at the alternative is not as great, I would keep him where he is. Remember that only 1 semester of his senior grades are considered for admission (not the year), it looks odd that he didn’t have the staying power in the IB program, and he will miss out on the biggest benefits of the program (the extended essay, the HL courses, TOK) and the camaradarie of his senior year. Just to maybe improve his chances to get into CMU?! The change may even hurt his chances. </p>

<p>I think we focus too much on the “getting into college” aspect of high school curriculum instead of focusing on how to best harvest long term benefits of intellectual stimulation and the social growth that comes during high school. I keep telling D to choose IB if she is interested in the program for her own learning and growth…if it, however, is going to mean that she can’t play a sport each semester (as she does now) and she really really values the sports aspect of HS then perhaps she should mix it up, not do the extended essay, and avoid the dreaded IB English course. Her worry is the opposite of your son’s . She asked me, could avoiding the full IB nix her chances for Yale (dream school)?..perhaps, but we will never know. Like your son, she has a great chance of getting into zillions of other great universities so she should focus on getting the most out of her high school years rather than trying to fine tune her transcript to improve her chances for a particular college.</p>

<p>IB definitely does much more to prepare students for the real world with both problem solving and soft skills.</p>

<p>For instance:</p>

<p>AP BC calc is largely book learning and preparation for a test, consisting largely of multiple choice questions. Problems are generally closely related to problems that the student has been taught to solve</p>

<p>IB HL math consists of a wide range of mathematical subjects, from statistics to complex numbers. In addition to a test, there are two internal assessments. While the course material will benefit a student in these assessments, they require problem solving skills. For instance, one of this year’s assessments involved multi-dimensional geometry, a subject that we had not covered in the least. While we used much of what we had been taught, problem solving and pattern recognition were most important</p>

<p>In short, life is not just a series of tests. Hands down, IB better prepares students for research and college learning.</p>